A possible mini hub in east coast (JFK)?

Old Mar 23, 17, 1:52 pm
  #1  
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A possible mini hub in east coast (JFK)?

I hate AS transcon flights. They leave very early (8am-9am) and come back very late (9pm-10pm). It is fine for business trips but not fun for family vacations at all. When the plane arrives, it is already 12am-1am EST and kids already got used to EST. So they are sleepy, cranky and reluctant to move.

Hawaii flights are much better. They leave a little late (9am-10am) and come back at 9pm-10pm. But it is still 7-8pm in Hawaii timezone so kids are totally ok with that.

I understand the schedule of transcon flights is caused by that the same plane has to fly back to west coast as there are no flights within east coast. So the schedule has to be like this. Delta has better situation so it can introduce FLL-SEA at 12noon, which is a perfect time for family vacation). After merging with VX, I am not sure if it is possible to introduce transcon flights with better schedule with solutions:
1) Add intra-east-coast flights between Northeastern airports and FL airports;
2) The airplane can fly from DAL or back to DAL. It is shorter distance so that the schedule can be flexible.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 2:12 pm
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Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
It is fine for business trips but not fun for family vacations at all.
So you're saying AS needs to optimize their schedules for your family vacations, and quit paying attention to West Coast-based business travelers?

I'm sure they'll get right on that.

Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
After merging with VX, I am not sure if it is possible to introduce transcon flights with better schedule with solutions:
1) Add intra-east-coast flights between Northeastern airports and FL airports;
VX has one JFK-FLL daily. Presumably if more made sense they'd add more, but NE Atlantic-Florida is not an uncrowded market: UA, DL, AA, WN, NK, B6, G4. Damn near everyone flies these routes.

I would tend to think AS is going to be prioritizing California and integrating VX over "hey, let's add a market everyone and their cousin is already flying, oh, and out of airports on the East Coast where we don't have bases or hubs".

Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
2) The airplane can fly from DAL or back to DAL. It is shorter distance so that the schedule can be flexible.
DAL is gate restricted (there are no common use gates AS can expand to), and VX already flies LGA/DCA-DAL, but LGA and DCA are slot-restricted airports as well, plus they have perimeter rules that block you from anything other than midcon or East Coast routes. Switching those DAL flights to FLL/MCO-DAL (and then figuring out what to do with DCA/LGA slots you now need to have service too, and can't serve from any AS hub) just so you can fly your family to Disneyworld at a convenient time seems kind of... strange, given that WN, NK and AA serve those markets just fine from Dallas. You're trading decent business markets for Dallas (Washington DC and New York) for people taking vacations to see Mickey. I mean... really?
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Old Mar 23, 17, 2:45 pm
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Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
DAL is gate restricted (there are no common use gates AS can expand to), and VX already flies LGA/DCA-DAL,
Also LAS. VX slightly reduced service at DAL, so there is a bit of slack. Hopefully it will be used to add SEA.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 3:13 pm
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Originally Posted by dayone View Post
Also LAS. VX slightly reduced service at DAL, so there is a bit of slack. Hopefully it will be used to add SEA.
It might make sense, but there's really no space for a robust Florida-DAL schedule without dropping some LGA/DCA-DAL service. DAL-LAS is 1x.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 3:22 pm
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Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
It might make sense, but there's really no space for a robust Florida-DAL schedule without dropping some LGA/DCA-DAL service. DAL-LAS is 1x.
Any suggestion of FL leisure routes is FoLly. And LAS used to be 2x.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 3:33 pm
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Actually I think the transcons work even for vacations. Leave Seattle in the morning and arrive on the East coast in late afternoon right about hotel check in time. Leave the East coast in the afternoon after spending an extra half day on vacation, back in Seattle late evening.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:00 pm
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Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
I hate AS transcon flights. They leave very early (8am-9am) and come back very late (9pm-10pm). It is fine for business trips but not fun for family vacations at all. When the plane arrives, it is already 12am-1am EST and kids already got used to EST. So they are sleepy, cranky and reluctant to move.

Hawaii flights are much better. They leave a little late (9am-10am) and come back at 9pm-10pm. But it is still 7-8pm in Hawaii timezone so kids are totally ok with that.

I understand the schedule of transcon flights is caused by that the same plane has to fly back to west coast as there are no flights within east coast. So the schedule has to be like this. Delta has better situation so it can introduce FLL-SEA at 12noon, which is a perfect time for family vacation). After merging with VX, I am not sure if it is possible to introduce transcon flights with better schedule with solutions:
1) Add intra-east-coast flights between Northeastern airports and FL airports;
2) The airplane can fly from DAL or back to DAL. It is shorter distance so that the schedule can be flexible.
Ha ha. That's funny.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:05 pm
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I think this issue was talked about at great length in another thread about AS establishing an EC or Midwest hub, and the consensus was it was not doable unless AS was willing to bleed cash for a considerable amount of time.

Establishing anything else at JFK is nearly impossible as slots are hard to come by and those with slots aren't giving them up anytime soon, at least in sufficient numbers to make it work.

BOS is a bloodbath already with B6 and DL & AA vying for number 2
PHL is AA
EWR is UA
LGA no slots and perimiter
DCA see above
IAD is UA
BWI is WN
CLT is AA
ATL is DL
CHI is a bloodbath

Basically any city that has enough OD to make a hub work is already taken. They could try RDU but I think that would cause an even further build up by DL there. And DL could spool up RDU faster than AS could too.

They could try to go into a former hub like PIT, MEM, CLE but they were all de-hubbed for a reason

Couple that with little name recognition East of DEN and that's a recipe to lose a ton of money.

Now if they want to see if we can get a AS/VX/B6 mega merger and for AlaskaBlueVirgin then you've got an airline capable of competing with the big 4.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:07 pm
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Not just for me. I choose DL's 12noon FLL-SEA over AS's early morning or late afternoon flights because of its convenient schedule. Many family with small kids prefer it too. It is a valid feedback from customers. AS did not do it before before it couldn't. Now it has ability to make it possible, of course I would suggest it.

Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
So you're saying AS needs to optimize their schedules for your family vacations, and quit paying attention to West Coast-based business travelers?

I'm sure they'll get right on that.



VX has one JFK-FLL daily. Presumably if more made sense they'd add more, but NE Atlantic-Florida is not an uncrowded market: UA, DL, AA, WN, NK, B6, G4. Damn near everyone flies these routes.

I would tend to think AS is going to be prioritizing California and integrating VX over "hey, let's add a market everyone and their cousin is already flying, oh, and out of airports on the East Coast where we don't have bases or hubs".



DAL is gate restricted (there are no common use gates AS can expand to), and VX already flies LGA/DCA-DAL, but LGA and DCA are slot-restricted airports as well, plus they have perimeter rules that block you from anything other than midcon or East Coast routes. Switching those DAL flights to FLL/MCO-DAL (and then figuring out what to do with DCA/LGA slots you now need to have service too, and can't serve from any AS hub) just so you can fly your family to Disneyworld at a convenient time seems kind of... strange, given that WN, NK and AA serve those markets just fine from Dallas. You're trading decent business markets for Dallas (Washington DC and New York) for people taking vacations to see Mickey. I mean... really?
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:32 pm
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Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
Not just for me. I choose DL's 12noon FLL-SEA over AS's early morning or late afternoon flights because of its convenient schedule. Many family with small kids prefer it too. It is a valid feedback from customers. AS did not do it before before it couldn't. Now it has ability to make it possible, of course I would suggest it.
John, everyone here understands your feedback, either with young kids or having been a young kid at one time. The problem is that AS will always prioritize business travelers' preferences over leisure travelers' preferences because business travelers tend to be higher revenue generators for the airline. Also, there is the reality of AS being a west coast-centric airline.

Honestly, DL is a much larger airline and can route planes with much more flexibility. At the end of the day, you need to choose what's best for your family (rather than be beholden to a single airline). If DL suits your family better, then choose the DL flight.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by John Wang View Post
AS did not do it before before it couldn't.
Alaska has chosen, with their 200 or so planes post-acquisition of Virgin America (over 600 less than Delta), to concentrate on building West Coast operations in California, maintaining their Seattle, Portland and Anchorage hubs, and integrating their acquisition, and, so far, not to add an East Coast hub. Too bad for you, I guess. Enjoy your Delta flights.

I want limitless free ice cream too, or any other number of things (a million dollars, a pony, dates with supermodels) that could be nice for me to have. I'm not sure that Alaska not giving those things to me is ignoring their customers and what's best for them.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 4:56 pm
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AS+VX have a cummulative total of what, 10-11 flights out of JFK? And you want them to build a hub off of that? Aside from the fact DL, B6, and AA already have established hubs there; the airport has slot-restrictions as well as limited gate space available.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 5:00 pm
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I'm shocked they're adding a lounge at JFK. (Maybe they're counting on getting a lot of Priority Pass traffic?)
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Old Mar 23, 17, 5:02 pm
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What you are requesting is out of the bound of a reasonable customer requirement. What I am proposing is not. That is a big difference.
BTW: Alaska just made an announcement today that they are building a lounge in JFK. It is a good step to make more visibilities is east coast. An east coast hub is not far away.



Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
Alaska has chosen, with their 200 or so planes post-acquisition of Virgin America (over 600 less than Delta), to concentrate on building West Coast operations in California, maintaining their Seattle, Portland and Anchorage hubs, and integrating their acquisition, and, so far, not to add an East Coast hub. Too bad for you, I guess. Enjoy your Delta flights.

I want limitless free ice cream too, or any other number of things (a million dollars, a pony, dates with supermodels) that could be nice for me to have. I'm not sure that Alaska not giving those things to me is ignoring their customers and what's best for them.
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Old Mar 23, 17, 5:10 pm
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If AS wants to add frequency, I'd think a triangle route SEA-JFK-FLL and vice versa might work. Or just add another plane tou double frequency both ways.
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