Happy

Second that. would like to know the alleged story about FIA and how AS created miles out of thin air to deposit to accounts that earn said bonuses.

Lumpylump76

Hmmm, All FF or loyalty points are created out of thin air. AS, AA, Delta, US can print as many miles they want for free.

Whether FIA pay/not pay for them is interesting, but fits the On Approval criteria for depositing miles. AS wants a credit card offer out there, and they probably aren't courted as much as AA would be because of their size and footprint. So in order for BoA to continue the program and get people to sign up, AS probably throws 25k miles in to sweeten the pot. To the airline, the 25k points is almost of no value. 1 award RT on Alaska metal has a real low marginal cost.

I have zero inside knowledge on this. Just wanted to clarify that all FF miles are created for no cost. Whether a bank pays the airline for them is a separate issue.

craz

Dont all carriers have to report the miles outstanding as a Payable(Liability) on its books?

Lumpylump76

They can report a liability, but that is not money out of pocket. They may have to hold a reserve? Outstanding miles are potential claims, and they know through data how many of those miles will just expire.

dayone

Yes, of course they are required to account for and report the liability. Note that the "thin air" proponent admitted that he had "zero inside knowledge."

U.S. airlines employ one of two methods to account for frequent flyer program liabilities for mileage earned by paying passengers: either the Deferred Revenue Method or the Incremental Cost Method. Deferred Revenue Method recognizes a liability for the fair value of the outstanding mileage. The Incremental Cost Method recognizes a liability for the marginal cost of providing air transportation to eligible award passengers. [I believe AS still uses ICM.]

U.S. GAAP requires use of the Deferred Revenue Method for FFP liabilities arising from the sale of mileage credits to third parties (e.g., banks who issue mileage credits to their credit card customers). Under these third party sale arrangements, airlines divide the sale of mileage credits into two components: the value of future travel to be provided and the value of marketing services provided (e.g., allowing the third-party customer to use the issuing airline’s logo and branding, access its customer mailing list, etc.).

Calculon

It's only "at no cost" if 100% of the miles expire. Which doesn't happen.

HouFly

just multiple supervisors who I happened to talked to. we actually stumbled upon this sorta discussion and details by chance. I didnt go looking for it (thought it was traditional like other co-brand partnerships) ... it all started the first time I got an AS Plat instead of a Visa Sig, those who follow the AS CC thread know the sorta hassle it is to petition to get the upgraded bonus, and now you know why it takes a cpl months.

and most recently when I tried to convert an older AS Visa Sig to another BofA product (thinking BofA had all the power in this relationship) - but it couldnt be done for some reason. and then we went exploring as to why that couldnt be done. before you ask, I did HUCA and multiple folks said the same about not being able to leave the AS fam, only downgrade to lower fee cards was possible (Plat, Classic etc.) apparently AS doesnt want you changing out of their fam, and since thats the deal (AS can dictate terms to BofA,) the bank adheres to it and cant switch you to one of its anciliary/ih-house products. atleast as of a cpl months ago. might have been possible in the past when AS looked the other way. might be possible in the future if AS stops caring. but right now, theres just way too many AS eyes on the whole shebang (management, analysts, fraud team, specialists) for anything to slip thru.

I doubt any AS reps on FT will confirm or deny the nuances of the negotiated deal b/w AS and BofA - thats if they even know. I've found AS reps and supervisors to be even more in the dark. then again most of my contacts with them were re: their mileage help desk, so they might not necessarily know the banking side of the equation.

CDKing

I've been told you can't PC to/from most of the cards that BofA has. It's not an AS stipulation. It's a BofA thing

HouFly

here's the thing BofA doesnt care if you sign up for it or not (that's why they'd give you as many as you wanted)... atleast they dont care as much as AS does (and thus the results of this thread when someone manually reviewing milieage postings @ AS escalated the OPs acct for possible abuse) ... once again, what I'm saying is that AS would issue and run this card on their own if they could. but they cant since they are not a bank, and thats where BofA comes in. mind you, only as a place-holding facilitator. BofA basically lets AS use it to issue an AS card and collect revenue from it. it is not like Citi or Chase where the programs are completely run on the banks end (because all the mileage is pre-purchased and "owned" by the bank.)

yes but that has nothing to do with reflecting true cost. cause not only are any given values assigned to a mile more or less random/meaningless/out of thin air (pick one or several) but also because of how big boy accounting works, these "liabilities" can often be swept to the side. or for airlines in much worse shape than AS, often under the rug, as a secondary after thought. why? because its not really a "real" liability.

even in AS's case, they can close your acct, wipe your balance clear and act like nothing happened and nothing was ever there. their T&Cs explicitly allow for them to get rid of this "liability" overnight if they chose to. but obv they wont since they wanna preserve a semblance of a good corporate customer, good faith dealings etc. its just a scary slope when you realize points arent something you own and FFP can run their programs like the wild wild west. where its my way or the highway.

HouFly

in this case it was an AS stipulation. the bank would have loved for me to keep my card open (after having spent a good amount on it) the retention dept I was transferred over to, wanted me to keep it open, not only the CSR but his supervisor as well ... they dont mind PCing me to another BofA card (and without having to offer a bonus from their own coffers) ... but since they couldnt after trying multiple things, I had to close my oldest acct with BofA.

you could be right that it maybe a BofA thing. but before I go do something, I read up data points on FT and other places re: whats the best case scenario and how I should proceed in my situation. so obv I only attempted this after reading how in the past folks have PCd. folks even posted they have PCs newer cards (ones they had for 3mo or so) ... unless those folks were lying, it seemed like you were able to go up and down the gamut of BofA (in-house) cards and they were happy to oblige.

jmw

From an AS email (not mine):

From MMS blog, who advocated the 5BM technique for his credit card pimping business, in case you feel like suing someone else for your misfortune:



And finally, the cash cost of the F ticket on Emirates if the last name doesn't match and you weren't flying:



In civil court, preponderance of the evidence is enough for AS to win on collecting the $17k. That means more likely than not you sold the miles or 50.0001% evidence in favor you sold the miles.

I got the popcorn ready for this one....

Often1

This isn't about whether OP committed fraud, it's about red red flags for fraud and the fact that OP is apparently not a particularly HVC so it's not worth spending the time, effort & money to investigate.

AS basically fired him. AA will do the same if he tries it. DL & UA seem to be a bit less on the hair trigger.

For all the Greek chorus here, if OP gets his account unlocked, great. If not, move on. Not worth one more second of worry.

dayone

Silliness, fantasy and without any basis in basic accounting methods and principles.

HouFly

I think that might be the issue, AS just fired him. it seems theres only one person reviewing cases for a final decision - yvette. not sure who the OP can appeal to after that.

I'd like to think she's fair in her dealings, but personal bias (stereotypes) often creeps up when it comes to judgment. for example this OP, along with the one in the thread linked in post 2 both sound like non-native english speakers.

considering the fraudsters/brokers yvette might be dealing with from the other side of the pacific, she might just be a bit more heavy handed with folks who fit that sort of mold. however unfair it maybe. I'm not saying that's what's necessarily happening. I'm not saying yvette is being unfair or not doing her job properly. but I'm saying I can understand why some folks might get swept up in a wider net not necessarily intended for them.

unless ofc the caveat being that there is more to the story than the OPs have admitted to.

Happy

May be I should make it clearer - what I meant is, those AS miles were not from the inventory BofA already paid for, rather were created when needed per the said arrangement. That means those AS credit card bonuses miles are never accounted for before they are awarded. That just does not fit the most other airlines models, nor the GAAP.