My account got shut down after getting the sign-up bonus?
Jun 16, 2015, 10:46 am
#31
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Programs: DL Diamond, Marriott LT Plat, HH Diamond, Avis Preferred Plus, National Executive
Posts: 4,578
Right now I do think they are being over quick on the trigger for locks. My GF's Account got locked and tickets cancelled because of a ton of redeposit and award issuances ..based on the fact that anytime you change a Qantas or Emirates award ...a redeposit/reissue takes place ..plus they also somehow thought one of the redeposit didn't happen and that she was 100K miles "overdrawn." Got it straightened out, but it seems that they have a "Lock First, ask questions later" thing happening. They don't make any proactive contact ..you only find out when you try to book something. GF has been a mileage plan member for years ..on and off MVP/MVPG ..though no status this year ..I think it would have been courteous to make a call ..send email etc. before locking an account or cancelling tickets. Doubly frustrating given that the Partner Awards Desk seems to often have *very* inexperienced reps working and that "Customer Care" which is the department that resolves this stuff has limited hours.
Also to say the Partner Desk reps are inexperienced is not my impression of them the past 10 years I have used them.
What exactly were the "ton of redeposits and award issuances". I could ssee why that would set off alarm bells.
Jun 16, 2015, 10:54 am
#32
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,872
This is a very troublesome way to handle the prevention of account frauds.
I honestly dont see how people transfer SPG pts to their accounts to book an award, or in your GF's case having to change the award ticket when better flights/dates became available, could be viewed as being abuse the system and cause a harsh punishment by shut down.
AS could easily impose the transfer limit on both the amount and the times allowed - such only 20K every 30 days, something like that. Modify the award booking mechanism so when changes are needed, there is no need to redeposit the miles, just reissue the tickets. AA, UA and DL all handle this way why AS cannot do the same? The only time AA redeposit miles is when you Upfare to a better class of service, or to change to an award with different regions, thus different miles required. Ditto UA.
As for the BofA AS card sign up bonuses - well, the miles are from BofA the bank - if the bank is willing to approve the applicant with multiple cards, hence the bonuses to go with it, why should AS care? AS already got paid by BofA on those miles. They sell their miles to the bank for profit. For those who claim this customer is not a profitable customer to AS, they are very wrong. Said customer is not a profitable customer to BofA, but profitable to AS who already made its money when said miles are sold to BofA. Now AS does not want to fulfill its side of the bargain by making good on those miles? That is a very lowly approach.
While the SPG transfer can be questioned due to the liquid nature of SPG pts. However when proof of the ownership is provided, AS should just admit its mistake and re-open the account, allows the account to be used with the full benefits just like any other accounts. Yet AS imposes some restrictions that are never in the T&Cs such as can only be used by account owner and may be immediate family members. That is bogus.
FFPs always are skewed to the airlines and consumers have almost 0 right per the languages. Worse, there is no consumer protection government agency like the CFPB to file a complaint.
What the OP could do is, to file complaint with the Consumer Affair dept of the AG office both in own state and the state where AS HQed. Not sure DOT could help in this case but lodge a complaint with DOT does not harm anything and might of help.
I honestly dont see how people transfer SPG pts to their accounts to book an award, or in your GF's case having to change the award ticket when better flights/dates became available, could be viewed as being abuse the system and cause a harsh punishment by shut down.
AS could easily impose the transfer limit on both the amount and the times allowed - such only 20K every 30 days, something like that. Modify the award booking mechanism so when changes are needed, there is no need to redeposit the miles, just reissue the tickets. AA, UA and DL all handle this way why AS cannot do the same? The only time AA redeposit miles is when you Upfare to a better class of service, or to change to an award with different regions, thus different miles required. Ditto UA.
As for the BofA AS card sign up bonuses - well, the miles are from BofA the bank - if the bank is willing to approve the applicant with multiple cards, hence the bonuses to go with it, why should AS care? AS already got paid by BofA on those miles. They sell their miles to the bank for profit. For those who claim this customer is not a profitable customer to AS, they are very wrong. Said customer is not a profitable customer to BofA, but profitable to AS who already made its money when said miles are sold to BofA. Now AS does not want to fulfill its side of the bargain by making good on those miles? That is a very lowly approach.
While the SPG transfer can be questioned due to the liquid nature of SPG pts. However when proof of the ownership is provided, AS should just admit its mistake and re-open the account, allows the account to be used with the full benefits just like any other accounts. Yet AS imposes some restrictions that are never in the T&Cs such as can only be used by account owner and may be immediate family members. That is bogus.
FFPs always are skewed to the airlines and consumers have almost 0 right per the languages. Worse, there is no consumer protection government agency like the CFPB to file a complaint.
What the OP could do is, to file complaint with the Consumer Affair dept of the AG office both in own state and the state where AS HQed. Not sure DOT could help in this case but lodge a complaint with DOT does not harm anything and might of help.
Jun 16, 2015, 11:01 am
#33
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Programs: DL Diamond, Marriott LT Plat, HH Diamond, Avis Preferred Plus, National Executive
Posts: 4,578
While the SPG transfer can be questioned due to the liquid nature of SPG pts. However when proof of the ownership is provided, AS should just admit its mistake and re-open the account, allows the account to be used with the full benefits just like any other accounts. Yet AS imposes some restrictions that are never in the T&Cs such as can only be used by account owner and may be immediate family members. That is bogus.
FFPs always are skewed to the airlines and consumers have almost 0 right per the languages. Worse, there is no consumer protection government agency like the CFPB to file a complaint.
What the OP could do is, to file complaint with the Consumer Affair dept of the AG office both in own state and the state where AS HQed. Not sure DOT could help in this case but lodge a complaint with DOT does not harm anything and might of help.
Mileage Plan General Terms and Conditions
Alaska Airlines reserves the right to terminate the membership and/or suspend access to the mileage balance of any member at anytime for any reason it deems appropriate.
Jun 16, 2015, 12:50 pm
#34
Join Date: Aug 2013
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold
Posts: 917
I don't think it's AS's responsibility in the arrangement between the OP and BofA to look for identity fraud. Besides, if the OP sent them proof of ID, why did they not reactivate the account?
I've said it before in other threads: many banks are complete idiots by not restricting the number of bonuses an individual can get. And they are double idiots by paying the bloggers for encouraging and promoting these schemes. But it's their choice.
Today we are talking about the extreme case of four sign-up bonuses. When will we hear from someone who applied for the personal and business card for completely legitimate reasons and got their AS account shut down -- because AS decided that they weren't a worthy customer (yet)?
I've said it before in other threads: many banks are complete idiots by not restricting the number of bonuses an individual can get. And they are double idiots by paying the bloggers for encouraging and promoting these schemes. But it's their choice.
Today we are talking about the extreme case of four sign-up bonuses. When will we hear from someone who applied for the personal and business card for completely legitimate reasons and got their AS account shut down -- because AS decided that they weren't a worthy customer (yet)?
The context of my earlier statement is that it was responding to someone who suggested that Alaska was on a slippery slope to shutting down accounts for crediting partner *flight* activity.
But yes, an extreme case as well as yet another cautionary tale when it comes to trusting bloggers.
Last edited by Calculon; Jun 16, 2015 at 2:23 pm
Jun 16, 2015, 1:00 pm
#35
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Programs: UA Gold 1MM, AS 75k, AA Plat, Bonvoyed Gold, Honors Dia, Hyatt Explorer, IHG Plat, ...
Posts: 16,846
They (Alaska) have received payment for those points from BofA. Unless BofA tells them that the card application was fraudulent, they should have no justification removing the points or the entire account.
The context of my earlier statement is that it was responding to someone who suggested that Alaska was on a slippery slope to shutting down accounts for crediting partner *flight* activity.
But yes, an extreme case as well as yet another cautionary tale when it comes to trusting bloggers.
Jun 16, 2015, 1:53 pm
#37
Moderator: Alaska Mileage Plan
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,316
Jun 16, 2015, 2:06 pm
#39
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Anchorage, AK
Programs: AS MVPG, SPG Gold, ICH P Club Plat, Hertz#1 5Star, Marriott Gold
Posts: 227
[QUOTE=apodo77;24978881]Every airline has a lock first, ask questions later. Why would AS be any different?
AS often *is* different in terms of taking care of their customers (in a good way). If you have a customer with years of BIS flight history, which is something that can be done with a very quick look at their history, it would make sense to start with benefit of the doubt ..unless true fraud is suspected.
Also to say the Partner Desk reps are inexperienced is not my impression of them the past 10 years I have used them.
I'd say the same up until the last ..oh 6-9 months. There are still some great ones ..but I do know for a fact (based upon some discussions with inside peeps) that there are a lot of new trainees in the department ..plus no longer any Partner Awards reps specifically dedicated to MVP/MVPG
What exactly were the "ton of redeposits and award issuances". I could ssee why that would set off alarm bells.[
4 or 5 I believe but am not positive. I don't know the details ...but I know there are often IT problems between AS and EK/QF regarding ticketing ..often ending up needing special handling. By the time everything is done ..a heck of a lot of transactions get created ..and I imagine a fair amount of manpower used. I imagine most other MVPGs do the same thing I do ..regarding international F awards ...decide what we want ... if something is even close ..take it.and keep looking for something more optimal.
/QUOTE]
Again, a guess without actually knowing anything ..is that the big issue ..not just in this case ..but in general ..regarding the increased monitoring of FF accounts on AS is about International F and J Awards. There aren't a whole lot of them ...they probably cost AS a fair bit of money ..and unlike Domestic Awards ..even though all except Cathay Pacific technically can be booked online ..they often end up requiring manual intervention. Somewhere in the food chain ...a message has been sent that those costs need to be reined in..which I get ..but imnsho ..the algorithms aren't ready for Prime Time yet for some reason, the Customer Service Department is loaded for bear. Here is the full story ..(I wasn't going to bother since it *has* been resolved, and the reps I worked with later on were great ..but it might be a useful insight for folks).
I actually lost the seats that were originally booked (getting 3 people ..on the same flight ..on EK on a A380 ..in F ..is NOT easy) ..managed to get it for one day later ..which worked out fine ..but if not ...I would not have been amused ..nor would there have been a damned thing I could have done about it ..which is unacceptable ..given that the mileage auditing error was AS fault, and even if it wasn't ...there was no necessity for an immediate cxl ..other than the CSR/Supervisor making it clear that they wanted to close the record NOW. Added to that ..they were totally unwilling to review the mileage discrepancy (which as I said earlier ..was resolved the following day with an apology) and the rep flat out lied on the reservation record notes ..stating that "customer requested the cancellation" ..which in turn means that AS would NOT ask EK to release award space even after apologizing for the audit mistake. The seats on the original flight never were returned to award inventory.
AS often *is* different in terms of taking care of their customers (in a good way). If you have a customer with years of BIS flight history, which is something that can be done with a very quick look at their history, it would make sense to start with benefit of the doubt ..unless true fraud is suspected.
Also to say the Partner Desk reps are inexperienced is not my impression of them the past 10 years I have used them.
I'd say the same up until the last ..oh 6-9 months. There are still some great ones ..but I do know for a fact (based upon some discussions with inside peeps) that there are a lot of new trainees in the department ..plus no longer any Partner Awards reps specifically dedicated to MVP/MVPG
What exactly were the "ton of redeposits and award issuances". I could ssee why that would set off alarm bells.[
4 or 5 I believe but am not positive. I don't know the details ...but I know there are often IT problems between AS and EK/QF regarding ticketing ..often ending up needing special handling. By the time everything is done ..a heck of a lot of transactions get created ..and I imagine a fair amount of manpower used. I imagine most other MVPGs do the same thing I do ..regarding international F awards ...decide what we want ... if something is even close ..take it.and keep looking for something more optimal.
/QUOTE]
Again, a guess without actually knowing anything ..is that the big issue ..not just in this case ..but in general ..regarding the increased monitoring of FF accounts on AS is about International F and J Awards. There aren't a whole lot of them ...they probably cost AS a fair bit of money ..and unlike Domestic Awards ..even though all except Cathay Pacific technically can be booked online ..they often end up requiring manual intervention. Somewhere in the food chain ...a message has been sent that those costs need to be reined in..which I get ..but imnsho ..the algorithms aren't ready for Prime Time yet for some reason, the Customer Service Department is loaded for bear. Here is the full story ..(I wasn't going to bother since it *has* been resolved, and the reps I worked with later on were great ..but it might be a useful insight for folks).
I actually lost the seats that were originally booked (getting 3 people ..on the same flight ..on EK on a A380 ..in F ..is NOT easy) ..managed to get it for one day later ..which worked out fine ..but if not ...I would not have been amused ..nor would there have been a damned thing I could have done about it ..which is unacceptable ..given that the mileage auditing error was AS fault, and even if it wasn't ...there was no necessity for an immediate cxl ..other than the CSR/Supervisor making it clear that they wanted to close the record NOW. Added to that ..they were totally unwilling to review the mileage discrepancy (which as I said earlier ..was resolved the following day with an apology) and the rep flat out lied on the reservation record notes ..stating that "customer requested the cancellation" ..which in turn means that AS would NOT ask EK to release award space even after apologizing for the audit mistake. The seats on the original flight never were returned to award inventory.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:26 pm
#40
Join Date: Aug 2013
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold
Posts: 917
Yeah, I really shouldn't ever reply using my phone, apparently. I get distracted while I'm writing. Should have read: "To protect themselves, not Bank of America."
Each company runs its own business, and can decide how they want to protect against fraud. I hate seeing the innocent (as OP was, even if it was risky) get caught up in it, but am glad that they are at least trying to catch the bad ones.
I can't see how "worthiness" comes into it - I doubt Alaska is considering that at all. We have recent examples of shutdowns associated with:
SPG transfers (purchasable points)
Direct purchase of Alaska miles (same deal)
Card bonuses (high potential for fraud)
So there's a reason why Alaska looks at those more carefully. They're more vulnerable to fraudulent use. Then we have flight activity, which requires a butt in a seat. How could it be misused to any significant degree?
That's the difference - it's risk, not worthiness. That's why the suggestion that partner earning is the next thing to worry about doesn't seem reasonable to me.
If they lock my account, I'll change my tune real quick, though. Let's just say that I hope you're wrong.
I totally agree with you that it seems too aggressive, assuming that we're getting the complete story from the OP and others.
But... but... but... they're my friends! They're mommies that travel for the sake of their beloved children, they love rubber duckies, and even though they're self-titled "thought leaders" they still make time to reply to my comments. How dare you suggest that they don't love me back. 
They (Alaska) have received payment for those points from BofA. Unless BofA tells them that the card application was fraudulent, they should have no justification removing the points or the entire account.
That someone was me. The point was that AS seems to be very aggressively going after some people who receive points into their AS accounts from activity other than AS flights. We've heard examples of SPG transfers and now BofA. Perhaps they don't consider those MileagePlan members worthy customers due to lack of AS activity. So my concern was that other partner activity such as lots of partner flights might be the next thing they consider an indicator of not-worthy-ness. Or perhaps it will be the other way around -- redemptions on partners, which likely cost AS more than redemptions on their own metal, might be the next factor.
SPG transfers (purchasable points)
Direct purchase of Alaska miles (same deal)
Card bonuses (high potential for fraud)
So there's a reason why Alaska looks at those more carefully. They're more vulnerable to fraudulent use. Then we have flight activity, which requires a butt in a seat. How could it be misused to any significant degree?
That's the difference - it's risk, not worthiness. That's why the suggestion that partner earning is the next thing to worry about doesn't seem reasonable to me.
If they lock my account, I'll change my tune real quick, though. Let's just say that I hope you're wrong.
I totally agree with you that it seems too aggressive, assuming that we're getting the complete story from the OP and others.
Trusting bloggers... whose primary motivation and mission in life is to collect the referral fee for the cards? Hah!
Jun 16, 2015, 2:49 pm
#41
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Programs: UA Gold 1MM, AS 75k, AA Plat, Bonvoyed Gold, Honors Dia, Hyatt Explorer, IHG Plat, ...
Posts: 16,846
We all get that the airlines claim they can do whatever the heck they want. In reality, they generally don't do that. AS seems to play a different game with some people, though. Including introducing rules that aren't actually in the T&C.
Jun 16, 2015, 3:14 pm
#42
Moderator: Alaska Mileage Plan
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,316
If airlines were to start mass-killing accounts without justification, they'll quickly run into trouble. Let's see how this tastes when your account is the one getting killed without reasonable justification.
We all get that the airlines claim they can do whatever the heck they want. In reality, they generally don't do that. AS seems to play a different game with some people, though. Including introducing rules that aren't actually in the T&C.
We all get that the airlines claim they can do whatever the heck they want. In reality, they generally don't do that. AS seems to play a different game with some people, though. Including introducing rules that aren't actually in the T&C.
Bleating that "it's not in the rules" and "they are not allowed to do this" has been going on for decades. It may be therapeutic but it doesn't change the facts. You can't fight city hall, whether it be in Seattle, Dallas, Chicago or Atlanta.
Jun 16, 2015, 4:13 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 562
Killing the goose that lays the golden egg
My goodness... for what possible reason could one want so many cards at once? Maybe one personal and one business? But 4?
It's gaming the system and absolutely destroying it for the rest of us who do this once a year or every other year.
Greed--->ruin
Yes, Alaska shouldn't do this and that... but they can and will.
The EK redemption ability was a godsend... and now that everyone's totally taking advantage of this absolute "privilege", AS is aggressively policing offenders. AS didn't have to offer it... but they did, and those who benefited knew how valuable it was. Now... oh well.
I hope AS/BofA continue to allow the ability to earn the bonus with each application... but now every time I apply it will be with some trepidation.
Our only hope is that people stop overdoing this so blatantly.
It's gaming the system and absolutely destroying it for the rest of us who do this once a year or every other year.
Greed--->ruin
Yes, Alaska shouldn't do this and that... but they can and will.
The EK redemption ability was a godsend... and now that everyone's totally taking advantage of this absolute "privilege", AS is aggressively policing offenders. AS didn't have to offer it... but they did, and those who benefited knew how valuable it was. Now... oh well.
I hope AS/BofA continue to allow the ability to earn the bonus with each application... but now every time I apply it will be with some trepidation.
Our only hope is that people stop overdoing this so blatantly.
Jun 16, 2015, 5:17 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,760
I know UA has been ordered by the AG office to resolve issues in the past.
Sure, it is a lot of hassle to find the proper channels to complain but the consumers are not totally without recourse and the airlines are not 100% invincible.
If you choose to lie down being beaten up by the bullies, that is your choice.
Others may fight back and see what it brings.
OP, the AG office of your state and AS's HQ state should be where you write your complaint letters. I am not sure if CFPB could be of any help as airlines are not under their jurisdictions.
Jun 16, 2015, 5:24 pm
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,760
You're right, it's not Alaska's job to do that for BofA, and that is not at all the point I was making. The point was that they are rightly careful to monitor points activity that is strongly linked to fraudulent behavior. To protect themselves, not Alaska [EDIT: meant Bank of America].
The context of my earlier statement is that it was responding to someone who suggested that Alaska was on a slippery slope to shutting down accounts for crediting partner *flight* activity.
But yes, an extreme case as well as yet another cautionary tale when it comes to trusting bloggers.
The context of my earlier statement is that it was responding to someone who suggested that Alaska was on a slippery slope to shutting down accounts for crediting partner *flight* activity.
But yes, an extreme case as well as yet another cautionary tale when it comes to trusting bloggers.
BofA has every right to do with the miles it has already purchased from AS.
Imagine this, a person applied for the personal and business cards, AND a checking account also with 25K bonus miles. He has 3x 25 miles awarded and transferred to AS account. Then AS shuts it down and confiscates them all? Regardless how the rules said AS can do whatever it wants, it does not stand the investigation and challenge by the AG office and may be a judge of small claim court. AS has to provide proof to support its action. Cannot be just out of its whim.