Account Suspensions/Closures on Accusations of Fraud/Brokering
Feb 24, 2019, 12:23 pm
#316
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kan@da
Programs: Anything with sweet spots
Posts: 1,790
Why do Americans sign away their rights to companies and allow terms and conditions to supersede common sense rights ? This wouldn't fly in Canada or EU.
Feb 24, 2019, 1:54 pm
#317
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,450
The amateur lawyering here is really not helpful. To anyone, but especially not the OP.
Feb 24, 2019, 2:08 pm
#318
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
The only thing worse than amateur lawyering is amateur lawyering without reading the document in question. Alaska's contract (terms & conditions) to which each member agrees, specifically provides:
"No benefit of Mileage Plan membership - including mileage credit, award travel, upgrade certificates, companion certificates, and elite status nominations - may be sold, purchased, or bartered, except to the extent permitted through Points.com. Mileage, certificates, tickets, or other benefits of Mileage Plan membership that are sold, purchased or bartered, and award tickets or Miles that are obtained from any unauthorized source (including travel agents, travel arrangers and unauthorized brokers), are voidable, in Alaska Airlines’ sole discretion."
Note specifically the term "sole discretion". The same contract also explains in plain English that the account may be cancelled for violations.
"In the event a Mileage Plan member violates these Conditions of Membership, perpetrates a fraudulent or deceitful act against Alaska Airlines, any of its partners or any of its customers, or engages in behavior offensive to Alaska Airlines' employees, partners or customers, Alaska Airlines may, without notice and in its sole discretion, suspend the Mileage Plan member's account; terminate membership in the Mileage Plan program; cancel all previously accumulated mileage; refuse to transport on a temporary or permanent basis; and/or confiscate any certificates or tickets previously issued. Reinstatements are subject to an administrative fee, if Alaska Airlines elects to reinstate the account. Alaska Airlines reserves its right to seek all available damages at law and in equity that may result from a member's violation of these Conditions of Membership. Participation in the Mileage Plan program may be prohibited or restricted in some countries. Nothing in these Conditions of Membership should be read as an attempt to override or circumvent any such foreign laws, and the Mileage Plan program is void where prohibited by such laws."
Anyone who suggests that the contract does not provide what amounts to shutdown language simply has not read the document. If indeed the account holder did not receive anything of value in return, he should be in touch with AS and offer to demonstrate that. Bearing in mind that AS has no obligation to hear him out or change its decision, that, rather than arguing about an irrelevant Ontario statute, is the best approach.
"No benefit of Mileage Plan membership - including mileage credit, award travel, upgrade certificates, companion certificates, and elite status nominations - may be sold, purchased, or bartered, except to the extent permitted through Points.com. Mileage, certificates, tickets, or other benefits of Mileage Plan membership that are sold, purchased or bartered, and award tickets or Miles that are obtained from any unauthorized source (including travel agents, travel arrangers and unauthorized brokers), are voidable, in Alaska Airlines’ sole discretion."
Note specifically the term "sole discretion". The same contract also explains in plain English that the account may be cancelled for violations.
"In the event a Mileage Plan member violates these Conditions of Membership, perpetrates a fraudulent or deceitful act against Alaska Airlines, any of its partners or any of its customers, or engages in behavior offensive to Alaska Airlines' employees, partners or customers, Alaska Airlines may, without notice and in its sole discretion, suspend the Mileage Plan member's account; terminate membership in the Mileage Plan program; cancel all previously accumulated mileage; refuse to transport on a temporary or permanent basis; and/or confiscate any certificates or tickets previously issued. Reinstatements are subject to an administrative fee, if Alaska Airlines elects to reinstate the account. Alaska Airlines reserves its right to seek all available damages at law and in equity that may result from a member's violation of these Conditions of Membership. Participation in the Mileage Plan program may be prohibited or restricted in some countries. Nothing in these Conditions of Membership should be read as an attempt to override or circumvent any such foreign laws, and the Mileage Plan program is void where prohibited by such laws."
Anyone who suggests that the contract does not provide what amounts to shutdown language simply has not read the document. If indeed the account holder did not receive anything of value in return, he should be in touch with AS and offer to demonstrate that. Bearing in mind that AS has no obligation to hear him out or change its decision, that, rather than arguing about an irrelevant Ontario statute, is the best approach.
Feb 24, 2019, 2:32 pm
#319
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kan@da
Programs: Anything with sweet spots
Posts: 1,790
Right there, you quoted it yourself:
"No benefit of Mileage Plan membership - including Nothing in these Conditions of Membership should be read as an attempt to override or circumvent any such foreign laws, and the Mileage Plan program is void where prohibited by such laws."
Feb 24, 2019, 2:37 pm
#320
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
So, where is the law prohibiting AS from taking anti-fraud measures?
For what it is worth, the AS rules do comply with the Ontario statute on expiration. That statute specifically permits expiration after a "long" period of non-use and where the time period is disclosed in the contract (which it is).
For what it is worth, the AS rules do comply with the Ontario statute on expiration. That statute specifically permits expiration after a "long" period of non-use and where the time period is disclosed in the contract (which it is).
Feb 25, 2019, 1:59 pm
#322
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
The world in which one makes that purchase and agrees to use those points in accordance with a set of rules and then breaks those rules.
The points are valuable but restricted,. It is a choice one makes.
The points are valuable but restricted,. It is a choice one makes.
Feb 25, 2019, 7:45 pm
#323
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,450
Alaska Airlines may, without notice and in its sole discretion, suspend the Mileage Plan member's account; terminate membership in the Mileage Plan program; cancel all previously accumulated mileage; refuse to transport on a temporary or permanent basis; and/or confiscate any certificates or tickets previously issued.
Feb 25, 2019, 9:52 pm
#324
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
I'm still waiting to see the contract. Did a meeting of the minds take place when we weren't looking? Is there even the slightest indication that the OP was aware of these terms when they purchased the miles? This is not as cut and dry as some of the airline apologists would make it out to be.
People sue companies all the time, despite draconian terms of service. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes they are settled. But the idea that anything that's written in the terms of service is iron clad and there's nothing you can do about it is simply not true.
People sue companies all the time, despite draconian terms of service. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes they are settled. But the idea that anything that's written in the terms of service is iron clad and there's nothing you can do about it is simply not true.
Feb 25, 2019, 10:34 pm
#325
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kan@da
Programs: Anything with sweet spots
Posts: 1,790
Why are some people blindly following or even defending Alaska's one-sided unilateral and non-negotiable terms, instead of fighting them and siding with consumer rights ?
Are they business owners themselves and thus side with corporate rather than consumer rights ? Are they disgruntled road warriors who spend too much time of their life in butt in seat time and are envious at churners and optimizers who get the same benefit award seats without spending their life sitting in airplanes? Or are they natural servants who thinking that by worshipping corporations, those corporations ate gonna be good to them in return?
Are they business owners themselves and thus side with corporate rather than consumer rights ? Are they disgruntled road warriors who spend too much time of their life in butt in seat time and are envious at churners and optimizers who get the same benefit award seats without spending their life sitting in airplanes? Or are they natural servants who thinking that by worshipping corporations, those corporations ate gonna be good to them in return?
Feb 25, 2019, 10:47 pm
#326
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: SEA
Programs: Hilton/Marriott Gold, Accor Silver
Posts: 2,036
Are they business owners themselves and thus side with corporate rather than consumer rights ? Are they disgruntled road warriors who spend too much time of their life in butt in seat time and are envious at churners and optimizers who get the same benefit award seats without spending their life sitting in airplanes? Or are they natural servants who thinking that by worshipping corporations, those corporations ate gonna be good to them in return?
Feb 26, 2019, 10:35 am
#327
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
I'm still waiting to see the contract. Did a meeting of the minds take place when we weren't looking? Is there even the slightest indication that the OP was aware of these terms when they purchased the miles? This is not as cut and dry as some of the airline apologists would make it out to be.
People sue companies all the time, despite draconian terms of service. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes they are settled. But the idea that anything that's written in the terms of service is iron clad and there's nothing you can do about it is simply not true.
People sue companies all the time, despite draconian terms of service. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes they are settled. But the idea that anything that's written in the terms of service is iron clad and there's nothing you can do about it is simply not true.
Then, remember that before purchasing miles, booking a ticket or engaging in any other transaction, the consumer checks a box certifying that he has read and understood those terms.
If you can find some good precedential authority for the legal proposition that saying that you do understand something means that you do not, then this is a valid discussion. Otherwise, this horse has been beaten to death hundreds of times on FT and this is just one website.
Feb 26, 2019, 10:37 am
#328
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Why are some people blindly following or even defending Alaska's one-sided unilateral and non-negotiable terms, instead of fighting them and siding with consumer rights ?
Are they business owners themselves and thus side with corporate rather than consumer rights ? Are they disgruntled road warriors who spend too much time of their life in butt in seat time and are envious at churners and optimizers who get the same benefit award seats without spending their life sitting in airplanes? Or are they natural servants who thinking that by worshipping corporations, those corporations ate gonna be good to them in return?
Are they business owners themselves and thus side with corporate rather than consumer rights ? Are they disgruntled road warriors who spend too much time of their life in butt in seat time and are envious at churners and optimizers who get the same benefit award seats without spending their life sitting in airplanes? Or are they natural servants who thinking that by worshipping corporations, those corporations ate gonna be good to them in return?
Or are honest citizens who don't enter into valid contracts in order to defraud the other party.
Feb 26, 2019, 11:15 am
#329
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: if it's Thursday, this must be Belgium
Programs: UA 1K MM
Posts: 6,484
Why are some people arguing with internet strangers if they believe that they can assert their rights in court? Feel free to go ahead and report back. You seek advice, you're receiving some. You disagree with much of it. Why waste your effort to convince people who don't matter in the end?