AS restroom-use squabble leads to wrongful detainment, $11,500 lawsuit
Aug 14, 2014, 11:48 am
#61
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
Got me man. 
.
Maybe they are worried a rush of people will try to break through the cockpit door?
I'm just the guy sitting over in 3A that doesn't want to be bothered and left alone to do his work hence why I don't like the rush of people in Y going to the lavatory in the front.
.Maybe they are worried a rush of people will try to break through the cockpit door?
I'm just the guy sitting over in 3A that doesn't want to be bothered and left alone to do his work hence why I don't like the rush of people in Y going to the lavatory in the front.
I remember I asked (I know better now) why I have to not recline my seat, when I was sitting in a back row with absolutely nobody behind me. The whole purpose of having seats up when doing take off and landing is in case of evacuation. But if I'm in a row, with nobody behind, who am I obstructing? If so, you should stay that you have to pull all the armrests up during takeoff and landing. That actually makes a difference.
The reality is people throw out "security" like it means something. Almost nothing we do means something, and I feel that many times when something potentially dangerous thing is caught it is more by accident than by intention.
Aug 14, 2014, 11:55 am
#62
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LON
Programs: AS MVPG, Marriott Titanium, UA Silver
Posts: 1,350
I remember I asked (I know better now) why I have to not recline my seat, when I was sitting in a back row with absolutely nobody behind me. The whole purpose of having seats up when doing take off and landing is in case of evacuation. But if I'm in a row, with nobody behind, who am I obstructing? If so, you should stay that you have to pull all the armrests up during takeoff and landing. That actually makes a difference.
Aug 14, 2014, 1:18 pm
#63
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: AA (PPro/3MM/Admirals Club), AS, UA, Marriott (Gold), HHonors (Gold), Accor (Plat)
Posts: 2,602
I'm sensing some confirmation bias here. Tend to agree with MonThruThurs that some parts don't feel right. The physics of the bathroom door - hard to imagine how an shoulder could be injured in any way, especially to the point of needing a doctor's care.
Exactly what happened is impossible to know from the story, since it only tells the plaintiffs' side. It's in their interest to only state the things that make them look good, and Alaska look bad. The FA may have handled it improperly, or the couple may have become belligerent to the point of needing to be being written up.
The few actual facts it gives don't really allow conclusions to be drawn:
- Being escorted off the flight doesn't make the couple guilty
- Not being charged doesn't make them innocent.
- Paying medical bills doesn't make Alaska guilty or innocent.
Exactly what happened is impossible to know from the story, since it only tells the plaintiffs' side. It's in their interest to only state the things that make them look good, and Alaska look bad. The FA may have handled it improperly, or the couple may have become belligerent to the point of needing to be being written up.
The few actual facts it gives don't really allow conclusions to be drawn:
- Being escorted off the flight doesn't make the couple guilty
- Not being charged doesn't make them innocent.
- Paying medical bills doesn't make Alaska guilty or innocent.
(The F lavatory doors on all the Alaska planes I've been on open outward towards the cockpit door, so yes a flight attendant could slam it closed and hit someone's shoulder.)
Aug 14, 2014, 1:23 pm
#64
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: AA (PPro/3MM/Admirals Club), AS, UA, Marriott (Gold), HHonors (Gold), Accor (Plat)
Posts: 2,602
On Alaska a person might get moved up to the first row of the plane at the last minute.
If someone is considered safe enough to board the plane, I don't think whether they sit in row 1 or row 30 determines whether they are a threat to the safe operation of the flight.
Aug 14, 2014, 1:36 pm
#65
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
The problem isn't that exceptions make processes more complicated. The problem is that rules are thought of mindlessly, and thus many times don't make any sense. They have to be enforced uniformly cause they actually don't have much logic to them, so you cannot use logic to make decisions on a case by case basis.
Aug 14, 2014, 1:57 pm
#66
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Programs: Alaska MVPG, SWA CP, SWA A list, Hyatt Platinum, Hhilton Gold, Makai Club
Posts: 244
shining example
Several years ago and without my asking, a F cabin flight attendant on Virgin America took out a book/binder about 4.5 inches thick and took it up to the captain to look at (as it had the official rules ,he told me) to ask permission of the captain so that I did not have to have my seat in the upright position for landing.
I won't go into details, but it was for medical reasons and much appreciated.
So FAs can use their noggins, realize that the rule (for Virgin America, at least) is that exceptions can be made if the seat behind is unoccupied and safety can be maintained while carrying out an act of kindness.
I won't go into details, but it was for medical reasons and much appreciated.
So FAs can use their noggins, realize that the rule (for Virgin America, at least) is that exceptions can be made if the seat behind is unoccupied and safety can be maintained while carrying out an act of kindness.
Aug 14, 2014, 2:19 pm
#67
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
Several years ago and without my asking, a F cabin flight attendant on Virgin America took out a book/binder about 4.5 inches thick and took it up to the captain to look at (as it had the official rules ,he told me) to ask permission of the captain so that I did not have to have my seat in the upright position for landing.
I won't go into details, but it was for medical reasons and much appreciated.
So FAs can use their noggins, realize that the rule (for Virgin America, at least) is that exceptions can be made if the seat behind is unoccupied and safety can be maintained while carrying out an act of kindness.
I won't go into details, but it was for medical reasons and much appreciated.
So FAs can use their noggins, realize that the rule (for Virgin America, at least) is that exceptions can be made if the seat behind is unoccupied and safety can be maintained while carrying out an act of kindness.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
Aug 14, 2014, 2:36 pm
#68
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
Oh, I've had a flight attendant use their brain before as well (most other people would call it common sense). I was on a regional jet, and the fasten seatbelt light was on the whole (short) journey, but I really had to use the restroom. Apparently when we landed they were confused about which gate, so they were trying to sort that out. So the flight attendant just let me go, even though we were still on the runway.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
Aug 14, 2014, 2:38 pm
#69
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LON
Programs: AS MVPG, Marriott Titanium, UA Silver
Posts: 1,350
Oh, I've had a flight attendant use their brain before as well (most other people would call it common sense). I was on a regional jet, and the fasten seatbelt light was on the whole (short) journey, but I really had to use the restroom. Apparently when we landed they were confused about which gate, so they were trying to sort that out. So the flight attendant just let me go, even though we were still on the runway.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
Honestly, the adherence to these rules is why we have a stellar safety record in the US, as opposed to less developed countries.
Aug 14, 2014, 7:09 pm
#70
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
I foresee this case showing up in Torts casebooks in the future
Aug 14, 2014, 8:47 pm
#71
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,684
Oh, I've had a flight attendant use their brain before as well (most other people would call it common sense). I was on a regional jet, and the fasten seatbelt light was on the whole (short) journey, but I really had to use the restroom. Apparently when we landed they were confused about which gate, so they were trying to sort that out. So the flight attendant just let me go, even though we were still on the runway.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
I don't think he's supposed to, but that rule is stupid.
We all fly on giant tin cans at 5 miles above the earth at nearly the speed of sound and it's safer to do that than to even drive to the airport. Rules exist for a reason. They're not stupid.
Aug 14, 2014, 11:41 pm
#72
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: SEA, FLL, Martha’s Vineyard
Programs: AS MVPGold75K, Hilton Gold, IHG Platinum, Pan Am million-miler
Posts: 2,019
This is absolutely a security issue, as well as a service one (people should not congregate in F). No line should ever form beyond row 6.
Aug 14, 2014, 11:47 pm
#73
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: AA (PPro/3MM/Admirals Club), AS, UA, Marriott (Gold), HHonors (Gold), Accor (Plat)
Posts: 2,602
You've got to be kidding? I would not feel safe if a group of people were congregating at row 1. What if the pilot opened the cockpit door, or the door accidentally opened or was unlocked? In a post 9/11 world safety and security should be a number 1 priority.
This is absolutely a security issue, as well as a service one (people should not congregate in F). No line should ever form beyond row 6.
This is absolutely a security issue, as well as a service one (people should not congregate in F). No line should ever form beyond row 6.
The best security change is that passengers won't sit idly by if someone is hassling the crew.
The second best change is that the flight deck doors have been reinforced and they follow careful procedures before coming out. They also send in a second person when a pilot is not in the flight deck so that it is never reduced to just one person.
I'm fine with minimizing congregating. Maybe they should put in a push button system so we can reserve our place in line to use the lavatory without leaving our seat.
Aug 15, 2014, 12:16 am
#74
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: SEA, FLL, Martha’s Vineyard
Programs: AS MVPGold75K, Hilton Gold, IHG Platinum, Pan Am million-miler
Posts: 2,019
The pilot NEVER opens the door without calling out to the FA first.
The best security change is that passengers won't sit idly by if someone is hassling the crew.
The second best change is that the flight deck doors have been reinforced and they follow careful procedures before coming out. They also send in a second person when a pilot is not in the flight deck so that it is never reduced to just one person.
I'm fine with minimizing congregating. Maybe they should put in a push button system so we can reserve our place in line to use the lavatory without leaving our seat.
The best security change is that passengers won't sit idly by if someone is hassling the crew.
The second best change is that the flight deck doors have been reinforced and they follow careful procedures before coming out. They also send in a second person when a pilot is not in the flight deck so that it is never reduced to just one person.
I'm fine with minimizing congregating. Maybe they should put in a push button system so we can reserve our place in line to use the lavatory without leaving our seat.
There is nothing wrong with waiting at row 6. It prevents disturbances of F class passengers, and it is safer. Another reason why Y pax lining up at row 6 is a good idea is because F class passengers should have priority to use the F class lavatory. When someone finishes, this allows F pax to cut the line and just go in ahead.
Aug 15, 2014, 7:39 am
#75
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
You've got to be kidding? I would not feel safe if a group of people were congregating at row 1. What if the pilot opened the cockpit door, or the door accidentally opened or was unlocked? In a post 9/11 world safety and security should be a number 1 priority.
This is absolutely a security issue, as well as a service one (people should not congregate in F). No line should ever form beyond row 6.
This is absolutely a security issue, as well as a service one (people should not congregate in F). No line should ever form beyond row 6.