golfingboy

That is only an AS issue in this situation AS will be receiving a handful of 739s, so they can shuffle things a little, but it definitely will grind their network expansion run.

Actually with UA protecting the turf, that is a good thing for AS. This will hurt VX and DL the most as they do not have the same leverage AS/UA enjoys from having a hub at one end with a strong presence in the other end.

Eastbay1K

I see that OAK is losing daily HNL service in the future (not sure if it is 3x or 4x/week) - can no longer take a Fri/Sun or Sat/Sun nonstop RT.

EIPremier

deleted

eponymous_coward

That's, well, crazy. WN flies to SFO, and they have de facto hubs in SJC and OAK. You can't surrender on the 7th largest airport in the USA when it's less than 700 miles from your major hub AND it's the #1 destination from your airport, unless you're basically telling DL "sure, take any of our routes you want, we're cool with it", and if you're going to do that, you might as well merge with them. Oh, and you do realize that AS actually flies non-hub routes out of SFO, right? PSP, PVR and SJD.

SFO is 7th. SJC is 43rd. OAK is 33rd. Both of them are smaller than PDX (by a lot, PDX has 3 million more departures than SJC, 2 million more than OAK). There's a reason for that. Leaving SFO for SJC/OAK would be like leaving LAX for BUR and LGB.

And let's put it this way: a consistently profitable airline like AS is pretty well-positioned in an airfare capacity war...

jwright

This is my favorite phenomenon about FlyerTalk (and I suppose any discussion board on the Interwebs): facts never get in the way of speculation.

EIPremier

I know, which is why I stated that I know AS would never do this. But, my post was more a reflection on the fact that AS seems to be lacking a strategy for SFO. All the new AS Bay Area routes have been ex-OAK and SJC. In contrast, AS has been shrinking at SFO. So, at a certain point, you have to wonder what is the underlying cause. Is AS truly not doing well ex-SFO?

eponymous_coward

Underlying cause is "directly competing with UA at a hub where inbound flights from SEA will regularly get ****ed by ATC wx holds on inbound shorthaul flights to SFO".

If you look at how AS routes their Bay Area-Mexico/Hawaii planes, they almost always go SEA-SJC/OAK/SMF-destination and v.v., and UA won't have the same problems because the planes mostly originate at SFO.

Eastbay1K

AS has a serious gate constraint situation @ SFO. They were evicted from 24, so they have 20 and 22, and use an international gate occasionally. Further, the pier in which they are located is slated for destruction, hopefully at some point before it sinks any further. This may have something to do with it, although some of the OAK/SJC route expansion has been picking up AQ slack, and they are already retreating on some of that service.

jwright

Seven weekday SEASFO round trips, six PDXSFO round trips, plus a couple Mexico and Palm Springs flights. To me it looks pretty straightforward that the strategy is connect SFO to the two AS hubs in the Pacific Northwest and throw in some additional leisure flying south. I am curious, would you please elaborate how you find AS service to SFO lacking a strategy?

OSUBeavers

US regional domestic carriers need to rethink their partnership with Government owned airlines like Emirates. They are harmful to other partners that fly international and they are provoking Emirates growth, which does not compete on a equal footing with US carriers.

SamuelS

I can now book DL from YYC, YLW or YEG down to LAX or LAS via SEA on QX and DL. Fares are around the same as connecting via SLC, or going on AS the whole way.

With AS/QX offering some feed into DL's new domestic routes from SEA, it's interesting times.

Tide_from_PAE

It's not surprising that AS is adding more SEA-SFO/LAX/LAS flights to compete with the new DL service. In terms of what carriers will stay on this route in the long term, AS has superior name recognition in SEA, UA needs SEA-SFO to feed its numerous flights out of SFO, DL is looking to be the price and service leader, WN needs SEA-LAS to feed its focus city operation and carry vacationers, and VX wants to stay in SEA as SEA was one of VX's most desired markets.

I could see UA dropping some or all SEA-LAX service, DL dropping some or all SEA-LAS service, and VX reducing service or leaving SEA altogether.

AS certainly has a game plan for SFO as there is a BR, service to SEA/PDX, and some point-to-point routes. The SFO operation is not unlike that of YVR with the exception of having more point-to-point routes (while LAX is an AS hub, YVR-LAX carries a lot of film industry passengers and is thus more of a niche route) and still has a BR.

EIPremier

I think the clearest example is the SFO-PDX route. AS faces competition from UA (Skywest/mainline), which have E+ and F. Furthermore, VX recently announced they are adding frequencies. Meanwhile, AS is flying the same mix of 3 737s and 3 Q400s. Keep in mind Q400s have no First Class, no wifi, no power or ife, non-reclining seats, less seat pitch, no windowshades on the majority of aircraft, no running water in the lav, and 15 min longer flying time. These Q400 flights are just not even remotely competitive with what VX or even UA are offering. If AS really wants to protect its SFO marketshare, they need to improve the product, not just add frequencies. They could either upgrade to all mainline flights, or they could upgrade the Q400s to offer better seats and an F cabin. A third option would be to farm out OAK/SFO-PDX operations to an E175 operator (no scope clause in the pilots contract to prohibit this, AFAIK). Instead, AS just seems to keep doing the same thing, which to me doesn't really look like a winning strategy. It has certainly worked for AS over the past 10 years, but I fear that because they have been successful for so long, they have become somewhat complacent and aren't responding to improvements in service from other airlines.

Then, there's the matter of reduced AS service out of SFO. In the past six years, AS has cut SFO-LAX, SFO-ANC (seasonal), SFO-SAN and SFO-YVR. Not saying it made sense to continue flying some of these routes, but its definitely a loss for SFO-based AS flyers.

beckoa

Another different perspective...

beckoa

I miss the ANC-SFO n/s on AS. Would be nice for AS to reinstate that next summer. And is there space in the current setup to run a Q400 SFO-SAN/SNA/ONT/BUR (Understand SFO-LAX is another bloodbath).