Flight attendant demanded that l delete the picture!
Jul 17, 2014, 11:50 pm
#31
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Sorry, I can't let that particular over-generalisation go without comment....
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that whenever someone will be recognisable in a published image, it is polite to ask their permission, and abide by their wishes, regardless of the legal position in the country you happen to be in, and that is the way I do things personally.
However, it isn't correct to say that it is illegal to take an identifiable photograph in the majority of the world (my specialist knowledge covers the UK and US, but I've had to research other areas from time to time). In fact, it isn't even technically correct for Germany, though I agree that the result may be the same (it isn't illegal to take a photograph that includes someone's face in Germany, but it may well be illegal to publish it, unless it comes under one of the allowed exemptions)
For the UK, pretty much anything that is on, or (subject to some common sense exceptions) visible from public land is fair game - there is no "expectation of privacy" in a public place, and, contrary to popular belief, any argument that hinges on copyright is doomed to failure (copyright in an image rests with the photographer, not the subject). Even on private property, you are entitled to assume that you can photograph what you want unless previously advised otherwise - you only start to risk "committing an offence" if you fail to stop when asked (and, the above German precedents notwithstanding, if you attempt to grab someone's camera or force them to delete photos, you are very likely to be guilty of an assault).
Most of the above also applies to the USA, with the helpful addition that most US airports are municipal property, and are thus classified as "public property" (but watch for local bye-laws).
Some EU countries are a lot more strict (beware Spain, and those countries with a similar legal system), and I certainly would not advise taking a portrait of any random German on the street in their home country and then posting it on Facebook, not unless you have access to very cost-effective legal representation....
In this particular case, if the subject was (or contained) the FA, then their permission should have been asked before taking the picture, however, the FA overreacted, and two wrongs don't make a right! (No-one has the right to force you to delete a photograph, not even most law enforcement, though obviously a polite request should always be considered on merits).
As someone who enjoys documenting their travels with photos, all of this "you can't take photographs here" hysteria does tend to push my buttons, though I don't think anyone who wanders around pushing their camera into peoples faces and generally acting like a paparazzi does the rest of us any favours, but I'd rue the day that I'm told I can't take a picture of the Eiffel tower because there may be someone else standing in front of it......
Ken.
Willard the Bear - ...and anyway, who could refuse the opportunity to be photographed with me!
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that whenever someone will be recognisable in a published image, it is polite to ask their permission, and abide by their wishes, regardless of the legal position in the country you happen to be in, and that is the way I do things personally.
However, it isn't correct to say that it is illegal to take an identifiable photograph in the majority of the world (my specialist knowledge covers the UK and US, but I've had to research other areas from time to time). In fact, it isn't even technically correct for Germany, though I agree that the result may be the same (it isn't illegal to take a photograph that includes someone's face in Germany, but it may well be illegal to publish it, unless it comes under one of the allowed exemptions)
For the UK, pretty much anything that is on, or (subject to some common sense exceptions) visible from public land is fair game - there is no "expectation of privacy" in a public place, and, contrary to popular belief, any argument that hinges on copyright is doomed to failure (copyright in an image rests with the photographer, not the subject). Even on private property, you are entitled to assume that you can photograph what you want unless previously advised otherwise - you only start to risk "committing an offence" if you fail to stop when asked (and, the above German precedents notwithstanding, if you attempt to grab someone's camera or force them to delete photos, you are very likely to be guilty of an assault).
Most of the above also applies to the USA, with the helpful addition that most US airports are municipal property, and are thus classified as "public property" (but watch for local bye-laws).
Some EU countries are a lot more strict (beware Spain, and those countries with a similar legal system), and I certainly would not advise taking a portrait of any random German on the street in their home country and then posting it on Facebook, not unless you have access to very cost-effective legal representation....
In this particular case, if the subject was (or contained) the FA, then their permission should have been asked before taking the picture, however, the FA overreacted, and two wrongs don't make a right! (No-one has the right to force you to delete a photograph, not even most law enforcement, though obviously a polite request should always be considered on merits).
As someone who enjoys documenting their travels with photos, all of this "you can't take photographs here" hysteria does tend to push my buttons, though I don't think anyone who wanders around pushing their camera into peoples faces and generally acting like a paparazzi does the rest of us any favours, but I'd rue the day that I'm told I can't take a picture of the Eiffel tower because there may be someone else standing in front of it......
Ken.
Willard the Bear - ...and anyway, who could refuse the opportunity to be photographed with me!
http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/tt...ng-on-the-job/
Last edited by jbb; Jul 18, 2014 at 2:41 am
Jul 19, 2014, 3:10 pm
#32
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I am not a legal expert, but I always had the understanding as per Ken's description above that individuals in public spaces could not assume a right to privacy with regard photographs. This brings to mind a major scandal a few years back in Canada when individuals took pictures of Toronto Transit workers sleeping on the job. There was much criticism of the Transit Authority and their workers but no one questioned whether it was legal for subway passengers to snap the pics of the sleeping workers - so one would presume, that in Canada at least, its fair game to take pictures of workers at their jobs in public places.
http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/tt...ng-on-the-job/
http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/tt...ng-on-the-job/
Jul 20, 2014, 5:31 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Posts: 871
If you read my previous comment, you would have noted that I made great pains to explain that individuals travelling abroad need to be aware of local culture and norms. I also explained that people working in international professions, such as airlines, also need to be sensitive of differing cultural norms from among their clientele.
In fact, you should have reserved your comment for the original German poster, who made the assumption that German law and custom regarding privacy extended to 'most other countries in the world'. It was that comment, which largeeyes and myself were pointing out was incorrect. I was not saying that Canadian customs and laws applied to Germany, but rather emphasizing Zap7's point that the strict German privacy laws were not the norm throughout the world.
Jul 22, 2014, 1:46 pm
#34
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 439
For the UK, pretty much anything that is on, or (subject to some common sense exceptions) visible from public land is fair game - there is no "expectation of privacy" in a public place, and, contrary to popular belief, any argument that hinges on copyright is doomed to failure (copyright in an image rests with the photographer, not the subject). Even on private property, you are entitled to assume that you can photograph what you want unless previously advised otherwise - you only start to risk "committing an offence" if you fail to stop when asked (and, the above German precedents notwithstanding, if you attempt to grab someone's camera or force them to delete photos, you are very likely to be guilty of an assault).
If this had happened in the UK, the OP could not have published the photo in any form. The FA could also ask for it to be deleted.
Jul 22, 2014, 9:35 pm
#35
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,042
That's where intent comes in. It was a passenger taking a picture of a flight attendant passing out candy, which was a public relations gesture. Just not reasonable for the FA to be rude and huffy about a passenger responding just exactly as Lufthansa intended, being charmed by the candy gesture, and innocently snapping a picture of it. I think the incident should be reported to Lufthansa.
Jul 22, 2014, 10:24 pm
#36
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It could be worse. A relatively infrequent flyer (that's how best to put it), from rural Morocco I guess took a picture of the Air France flight attendant on my Air France Marrakech-Paris flight. There followed a heated argument - the guy clearly did not understand what she meant about privacy and so on - he just wanted to record every bit of his first flight.
As I left the aircraft two burly policiers were waiting on the air bridge for the unfortunate.
As I left the aircraft two burly policiers were waiting on the air bridge for the unfortunate.
Jul 23, 2014, 6:48 am
#37
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Jul 24, 2014, 12:07 am
#40
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It could be worse. A relatively infrequent flyer (that's how best to put it), from rural Morocco I guess took a picture of the Air France flight attendant on my Air France Marrakech-Paris flight. There followed a heated argument - the guy clearly did not understand what she meant about privacy and so on - he just wanted to record every bit of his first flight.
As I left the aircraft two burly policiers were waiting on the air bridge for the unfortunate.
As I left the aircraft two burly policiers were waiting on the air bridge for the unfortunate.
Rule number 1: You need to ask.
Jul 24, 2014, 12:10 am
#41
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Jul 24, 2014, 6:20 pm
#42
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Jul 25, 2014, 12:11 am
#43
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From what I read the FA stated in the form of a question that the pax took the photo without permission and then asked to delete it even using the word "please". Everything else is the OP's colour and interpretation. The statement is correct and so is the request, so nothing to complain about. I do not read anything about being inpolite, shouting or whatsoever. We are not in Florida or in Hawaii but in Europe and we use clear language.
Jul 25, 2014, 7:02 am
#44
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OP used language that helped us understand how the encounter made her feel. She also wrote that she was "stunned", but it's probably safe to assume that she wasn't.
OP seemed to find the responses here helpful (and moved on, more than three weeks before your first post in this thread).
OP seemed to find the responses here helpful (and moved on, more than three weeks before your first post in this thread).
Jul 28, 2014, 10:41 pm
#45
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 445
If l was out of line, l will accept it and not complain to the airline, so l'm seeking advice from more experienced travelers than myself. Here's what happened.
My husband and l were about to board a connecting flight (Air Berlin from Hamburg to SKG, originally booked through BA from LHR). Upon entering l saw a flight attendant welcoming everyone on board and offering candy, so l thought: nice touch. I've never been welcomed on board with candy before - so l took a picture. The only way l can describe the flight attendant's reaction and tone of voice was like a woman at boarding school with a ruler who was ready to smack me because she caught me being naughty. In the meanest most reprimanding voice she said, "You did not ask my permission to take my picture?" I was stunned and speechless, searching for words. I said "excuse me?" ( l'm thinking, is she really mad that l took a picture?) Mind you, we are still at the entrance to the plane. Last thing l would want is for her to throw me off the plane as a disruptive passenger. In any case, it happened so fast my brain couldn't formulate a response. Then she said "You should have asked. Delete it please." Looking me dead in the face, she waited for me to delete the photo, while the woman behind me is waiting to come in the plane. So l deleted it and my husband and l went to our seats. All throughout the flight, I felt totally humiliated just because of how she spoke to me. I am completely not against her telling me to delete the photo, but did she really need to speak to and adult like l was a 2 year old child? Is there a picture taking etiquette l didnt hear about? I know immigration check points and security areas are off limits for photos. Anything else l should know?
In contrast, a few days earlier l was on a Virgin Atlantic plane from New York to London and not only did those flight attendants pose for pictures, they took pictures for me in first class. So l never dreamed l would have this experience on Air Berlin. Interestingly, l received avrewuest from British Airways to complete a survey about my flight experience. Like l said, if I'm wrong l won't complain. What do you think?
My husband and l were about to board a connecting flight (Air Berlin from Hamburg to SKG, originally booked through BA from LHR). Upon entering l saw a flight attendant welcoming everyone on board and offering candy, so l thought: nice touch. I've never been welcomed on board with candy before - so l took a picture. The only way l can describe the flight attendant's reaction and tone of voice was like a woman at boarding school with a ruler who was ready to smack me because she caught me being naughty. In the meanest most reprimanding voice she said, "You did not ask my permission to take my picture?" I was stunned and speechless, searching for words. I said "excuse me?" ( l'm thinking, is she really mad that l took a picture?) Mind you, we are still at the entrance to the plane. Last thing l would want is for her to throw me off the plane as a disruptive passenger. In any case, it happened so fast my brain couldn't formulate a response. Then she said "You should have asked. Delete it please." Looking me dead in the face, she waited for me to delete the photo, while the woman behind me is waiting to come in the plane. So l deleted it and my husband and l went to our seats. All throughout the flight, I felt totally humiliated just because of how she spoke to me. I am completely not against her telling me to delete the photo, but did she really need to speak to and adult like l was a 2 year old child? Is there a picture taking etiquette l didnt hear about? I know immigration check points and security areas are off limits for photos. Anything else l should know?
In contrast, a few days earlier l was on a Virgin Atlantic plane from New York to London and not only did those flight attendants pose for pictures, they took pictures for me in first class. So l never dreamed l would have this experience on Air Berlin. Interestingly, l received avrewuest from British Airways to complete a survey about my flight experience. Like l said, if I'm wrong l won't complain. What do you think?
There are things that go on in a persons private lives that we know nothing about.
I would have deleted, apologized and moved on.
Things happen, sorry this happened to you.