I'm furious
Sep 22, 23, 2:43 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Zealand
Programs: *A NZ Gold Elite for over 20 years previously SQ PPS and UA 1K
Posts: 279
I'm furious
My wife got up at 5am this morning to drop my stepson and his partner at the airport to fly to Fiji this morning. The paid for their tickets last November (ie AirNZ has sat on full payment for 10 months earning interest. They checked in 3 hours before departure and have been told there are no seats as AirNZ has oversold the flight. It's school holidays.
This is simply outrageous behaviour and in the EU there are consumer laws to prevent what is clearly a deliberate act of fraud.
If they don't get on the flight my Dunedin flight on Monday ($1000) will be cancelled and go to Jetstar, there is $1000 gone and I will not travel again on this pack of thugs unless there is no choice for the next year.
Unless we make a stand against this sort of fraud we will continue to be treated this way.
Are you with me? Make a stand. As an elite I don't see this nonsense but I'll be plenty of people do and its simply not ok.
This is simply outrageous behaviour and in the EU there are consumer laws to prevent what is clearly a deliberate act of fraud.
If they don't get on the flight my Dunedin flight on Monday ($1000) will be cancelled and go to Jetstar, there is $1000 gone and I will not travel again on this pack of thugs unless there is no choice for the next year.
Unless we make a stand against this sort of fraud we will continue to be treated this way.
Are you with me? Make a stand. As an elite I don't see this nonsense but I'll be plenty of people do and its simply not ok.
Sep 22, 23, 3:06 pm
#3
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 23
As I can see NZ950 used B789 today, so it shouldn’t be a problem due to a smaller plane than expected.
I’m a bit worry about my flight (NZ625) for a marathon in November, which has no seats available now. Hope that they don't have such overbooked issues for domestic routes.
I’m a bit worry about my flight (NZ625) for a marathon in November, which has no seats available now. Hope that they don't have such overbooked issues for domestic routes.
Sep 22, 23, 3:18 pm
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MEL CHC
Posts: 20,487
It is past time NZ and AU had UK/EU 261 type laws. Need complementary laws in both countries, given the high trans Tasman traffic.
Hope they get to Fiji.
Sep 22, 23, 3:22 pm
#5
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Auckland
Programs: NZ *G, AS 75K
Posts: 55
I had this same problem on a different route recently. I won the disputes tribunal ruling and they had to refund me my fare and the cost of me buying a ticket for another airline. Needless to say I don't think they'll be overbooking me anytime soon.
The airlines are arrogant and prey on people not pushing back on the AIRLINES T&C, which quite frankly falls like a pack of cards at the tribunal.
Just book another ticket full economy on another airline, and take them to the tribunal, it's the best way to show them - and it happens so often they put their disputes tribunal email on the contact page.
The airlines are arrogant and prey on people not pushing back on the AIRLINES T&C, which quite frankly falls like a pack of cards at the tribunal.
Just book another ticket full economy on another airline, and take them to the tribunal, it's the best way to show them - and it happens so often they put their disputes tribunal email on the contact page.
Sep 22, 23, 3:55 pm
#7
Join Date: Feb 2007
Programs: NZ Koru
Posts: 6,363
The UK/EU261 laws do not prevent fraud. But a financial penalty to the airline when such things happen in the full control of the airline,
It is past time NZ and AU had UK/EU 261 type laws. Need complementary laws in both countries, given the high trans Tasman traffic.
Hope they get to Fiji.
It is past time NZ and AU had UK/EU 261 type laws. Need complementary laws in both countries, given the high trans Tasman traffic.
Hope they get to Fiji.
Id love to see some penalties implemented for delayed departures due to operational reasons implemented too.
The amount of times the first flight of the day to SYD/BNE gets delayed is a joke. Often the reason is trivial too, eg waiting on Catering, or Cleaning
When 90% of the time the aircraft has been sitting at the gate for 6hrs.
Sep 22, 23, 4:03 pm
#8
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: New Zealand (most of the time)
Programs: Air NZ Elite *G, Honors Gold, IHG Platinum Elite
Posts: 5,904
NZ would soon learn fast or go out business if had those rules here.
Id love to see some penalties implemented for delayed departures due to operational reasons implemented too.
The amount of times the first flight of the day to SYD/BNE gets delayed is a joke. Often the reason is trivial too, eg waiting on Catering, or Cleaning
When 90% of the time the aircraft has been sitting at the gate for 6hrs.
Id love to see some penalties implemented for delayed departures due to operational reasons implemented too.
The amount of times the first flight of the day to SYD/BNE gets delayed is a joke. Often the reason is trivial too, eg waiting on Catering, or Cleaning
When 90% of the time the aircraft has been sitting at the gate for 6hrs.
Sep 22, 23, 4:21 pm
#10
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: WLG/BKK
Programs: TG*G, NZ*GE, QF G, Accor Gold
Posts: 9,603
In this case, rather than just bumping people perhaps AirNZ should have first sought volunteers to willing to delay travel. If it is a major change (789 to 320) then this is more difficult. And the lack of transparency on the process for determining who gets selected for being bumped is yet another issue.
Sep 22, 23, 5:34 pm
#11
Join Date: Feb 2007
Programs: NZ Koru
Posts: 6,363
Presumably the seat was available when it was sold 10 months ago - ie not immediately over-booked. We all know in aviation that things happen, but of course the remedy is vitally important.
In this case, rather than just bumping people perhaps AirNZ should have first sought volunteers to willing to delay travel. If it is a major change (789 to 320) then this is more difficult. And the lack of transparency on the process for determining who gets selected for being bumped is yet another issue.
In this case, rather than just bumping people perhaps AirNZ should have first sought volunteers to willing to delay travel. If it is a major change (789 to 320) then this is more difficult. And the lack of transparency on the process for determining who gets selected for being bumped is yet another issue.
My bet is lowest price paid = first off. Aka the people that booked 10months ago are most likely to get offloaded.
Sep 22, 23, 5:41 pm
#12
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: DRW
Programs: QFF
Posts: 124
Sep 22, 23, 6:00 pm
#13
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MEL CHC
Posts: 20,487
off topic
Even if EU261 type laws were introduced most time would be no compensation. Not many delays, entirely due to the airline, over 2:00hrs. At SYD when they go from 2 runway operation to 1 runway operation, that issue has flow on effects to many AU flights and maybe even TT flights. International flight do get a little priority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pa...hts_Regulation
From NZ to east coast AU many flights are under 1500km, with some just over
A map from the Great Circle Mapper - Great Circle Mapper
For all my TT flights biggest delays have been with Air NZ. JQ the least.
NZ would soon learn fast or go out business if had those rules here.
I’d love to see some penalties implemented for delayed departures due to operational reasons implemented too.
The amount of times the first flight of the day to SYD/BNE gets delayed is a joke. Often the reason is trivial too, eg waiting on Catering, or Cleaning…
When 90% of the time the aircraft has been sitting at the gate for 6hrs.
I’d love to see some penalties implemented for delayed departures due to operational reasons implemented too.
The amount of times the first flight of the day to SYD/BNE gets delayed is a joke. Often the reason is trivial too, eg waiting on Catering, or Cleaning…
When 90% of the time the aircraft has been sitting at the gate for 6hrs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pa...hts_Regulation
Flight types
The requirements for an entitlement to compensation and the specific amount owed depend on the length of a flight, whereas the relevant distance is determined according to the great circle method. The Regulation differentiates between three types of flights:
Delays
Passengers are entitled to refreshments and communication if the expected delay of the arrival exceeds:[11][12]
If a flight is delayed by five hours, passengers are additionally entitled to abandon their journey and receive a refund for all unused tickets. They may also ask for a refund on tickets used already if the flight no longer serves any purpose in relation to their original travel plan, and, if relevant, a flight back to their original point of departure at the earliest opportunity.[14]
Flight delay is based on the scheduled arrival time. This is defined as when the doors are opened on the plane and not when it lands.
Although not set out in the text of the regulation, a series of court cases created a rule that in case of an arrival delay of more than 3 hours, passengers are entitled to cash compensation, unless the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances. Unlike the entitlements to refreshments, communication, or accommodation, this 3-hour threshold does not scale with the distance of the flight.[16]
In October 2017, an EU Court of Appeal confirmed the UK CAA's interpretation that the final destination must be included in the total delay. This means that, if the passenger misses a connection outside the EU and ends up with a delay longer than the times indicated above, even if the delay on the flight leaving the EU was less than the aforementioned times, the total delay will be used and not only the delay on leaving the EU.[17]
<snip>
The requirements for an entitlement to compensation and the specific amount owed depend on the length of a flight, whereas the relevant distance is determined according to the great circle method. The Regulation differentiates between three types of flights:
- Flights of less than 1,500 km (930 mi) in distance;
- Flights within the EU of greater than 1,500 km (930 mi) in distance, or any other flight of greater than 1,500 km (930 mi) but less than 3,500 km (2,200 mi) in distance;
- Flights not within the EU of greater than 3,500 km (2,200 mi) in distance.
Delays
Passengers are entitled to refreshments and communication if the expected delay of the arrival exceeds:[11][12]
- two hours, in the case of a type 1 flight,
- three hours, in the case of a type 2 flight, or
- four hours, in the case of a type 3 flight.
If a flight is delayed by five hours, passengers are additionally entitled to abandon their journey and receive a refund for all unused tickets. They may also ask for a refund on tickets used already if the flight no longer serves any purpose in relation to their original travel plan, and, if relevant, a flight back to their original point of departure at the earliest opportunity.[14]
Flight delay is based on the scheduled arrival time. This is defined as when the doors are opened on the plane and not when it lands.
Although not set out in the text of the regulation, a series of court cases created a rule that in case of an arrival delay of more than 3 hours, passengers are entitled to cash compensation, unless the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances. Unlike the entitlements to refreshments, communication, or accommodation, this 3-hour threshold does not scale with the distance of the flight.[16]
In October 2017, an EU Court of Appeal confirmed the UK CAA's interpretation that the final destination must be included in the total delay. This means that, if the passenger misses a connection outside the EU and ends up with a delay longer than the times indicated above, even if the delay on the flight leaving the EU was less than the aforementioned times, the total delay will be used and not only the delay on leaving the EU.[17]
<snip>
A map from the Great Circle Mapper - Great Circle Mapper
For all my TT flights biggest delays have been with Air NZ. JQ the least.
Sep 22, 23, 7:35 pm
#14
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: New Zealand (most of the time)
Programs: Air NZ Elite *G, Honors Gold, IHG Platinum Elite
Posts: 5,904
Oversold flights are a reality of the airline business model. Airlines don't make money selling empty flights and know that there will always be some people who don't show.
This isn't going to change, but what we do need is better consumer protection when this does happen.
This isn't going to change, but what we do need is better consumer protection when this does happen.
Sep 22, 23, 8:47 pm
#15
Join Date: Sep 2022
Programs: Airpoints
Posts: 40
Can someone explain to a numpty like me the 'theory' behind overselling seats?
I get that airlines don't want to fly with empty seats, makes perfect sense. So I'm guessing the seats are oversold and there's just some allowance/hoping that enough people will cancel or not turn up before the flight?
Personally I've only been affected once by an overbooking (wife and I were travelling back on Ethihad from Singapore - at least I think it was Ethihad it was ages ago when we were just out of uni and so any travel was for the cheapest deal available).
We got to Changi very early as we wanted to do some duty free shopping - when checking in the agent said 'flight's overbooked, if you want to go an hour later on Singapore business class we can book you on that' which was a nice end to our holiday.
How hard would it be to have a law here that says an airline has to basically offer something (e.g. cash, travel credit, upgraded travel on a later service or whatever) at an increasing value until enough passengers take the offer up? If I'm travelling for leisure you can bet your bottom dollar I'll take a bumping if it means I get something more valuable in exchange. If you can't get that and then someone has to be forcibly bumped, then there needs to be compensation.
I get that airlines don't want to fly with empty seats, makes perfect sense. So I'm guessing the seats are oversold and there's just some allowance/hoping that enough people will cancel or not turn up before the flight?
Personally I've only been affected once by an overbooking (wife and I were travelling back on Ethihad from Singapore - at least I think it was Ethihad it was ages ago when we were just out of uni and so any travel was for the cheapest deal available).
We got to Changi very early as we wanted to do some duty free shopping - when checking in the agent said 'flight's overbooked, if you want to go an hour later on Singapore business class we can book you on that' which was a nice end to our holiday.
How hard would it be to have a law here that says an airline has to basically offer something (e.g. cash, travel credit, upgraded travel on a later service or whatever) at an increasing value until enough passengers take the offer up? If I'm travelling for leisure you can bet your bottom dollar I'll take a bumping if it means I get something more valuable in exchange. If you can't get that and then someone has to be forcibly bumped, then there needs to be compensation.
