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Domestic fully vaccinated or test required mid December

Domestic fully vaccinated or test required mid December

Old Feb 8, 2022, 1:00 am
  #76  
 
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Yeah, nah. Air NZ have stated you must be vaxxed to travel with them (internationally). This is illegal. Most won't question it but it is improper and irresponsible for them to mandate what they're not actually legally able to. While majority government owned, it's no reason for them to act socialist because of it.
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Old Feb 8, 2022, 1:17 am
  #77  
 
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. .

Last edited by T-15.01; Feb 8, 2022 at 1:18 am Reason: Duplicate
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Old Feb 8, 2022, 5:05 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by cakiwi
Yeah, nah. Air NZ have stated you must be vaxxed to travel with them (internationally). This is illegal. Most won't question it but it is improper and irresponsible for them to mandate what they're not actually legally able to. While majority government owned, it's no reason for them to act socialist because of it.
You are missing one key thing, Air New Zealand's international flights aren't considered a public transport service (only domestic flights are).

International flights operated by Air New Zealand (or any carrier for that matter) aren't even bound by that health order you're misquoting and as Air New Zealand (and most other airlines) are a private business they can pick who they serve. For this to be an actual problem they'd need to somehow breach the NZ Human Rights Act or Bill of Rights but good luck arguing that one.

After a tad more googling it seems the NZ Attorney-General has already discussed this:
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/l...-against-covid
tldr version - people have already tried and failed in courts to claim human rights issues about vaccination at work. For private companies there is basically no legal mechanism preventing them except for human rights act however as the provision of allowing those with genuine reasons for not being vaxed to access the same opportunities as those who are, there isn't really much scope for successful legal action.

Last edited by henrus; Feb 8, 2022 at 5:15 am
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Old Feb 8, 2022, 8:06 pm
  #79  
 
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Originally Posted by henrus
You are missing one key thing, Air New Zealand's international flights aren't considered a public transport service (only domestic flights are).

International flights operated by Air New Zealand (or any carrier for that matter) aren't even bound by that health order you're misquoting and as Air New Zealand (and most other airlines) are a private business they can pick who they serve. For this to be an actual problem they'd need to somehow breach the NZ Human Rights Act or Bill of Rights but good luck arguing that one.

After a tad more googling it seems the NZ Attorney-General has already discussed this:
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/l...-against-covid
tldr version - people have already tried and failed in courts to claim human rights issues about vaccination at work. For private companies there is basically no legal mechanism preventing them except for human rights act however as the provision of allowing those with genuine reasons for not being vaxed to access the same opportunities as those who are, there isn't really much scope for successful legal action.
really? I'm not an attorney or barrister. But the order which is now law states:public transport serviceó
(a)
means a service for the carriage of passengers for hire or reward that is available to the public generally; but
(b)
excludes a school transport service; and
(c)
excludes a service for the carriage of passengers for hire or reward that is hired for the purposes ofó
(i)
a business or service; or
(ii)
a permitted gathering or a permitted event; and
(d)
always includes a service of the kind described in paragraph (a) that is provided by means of a small passenger service vehicle

Unless I'm mistaken the area of operation, shareholding of the service provider, ownership structure and mode of transportation that is provided are all irrelevant.

There are some specific exclusions. But, a kiwi who flew to London to see Queen Lizzy hit her recent milestone, and who wanted to fly home without any production of a vaccination certificate is, as best I can tell, well able to do so under NZ law. If Air NZ want to prevent that then they need to make sure it is legally permissible. And just as Intercity cannot demand a vaccination certificate for their bus trip for a leisure passenger from Moeraki to Nae Nae, I don't think Air NZ can opt out of carrying filthy Fred, either.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 3:25 am
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by cakiwi
really? I'm not an attorney or barrister. But the order which is now law states:public transport service—
(a)
means a service for the carriage of passengers for hire or reward that is available to the public generally; but
(b)
excludes a school transport service; and
(c)
excludes a service for the carriage of passengers for hire or reward that is hired for the purposes of—
(i)
a business or service; or
(ii)
a permitted gathering or a permitted event; and
(d)
always includes a service of the kind described in paragraph (a) that is provided by means of a small passenger service vehicle

Unless I'm mistaken the area of operation, shareholding of the service provider, ownership structure and mode of transportation that is provided are all irrelevant.

There are some specific exclusions. But, a kiwi who flew to London to see Queen Lizzy hit her recent milestone, and who wanted to fly home without any production of a vaccination certificate is, as best I can tell, well able to do so under NZ law. If Air NZ want to prevent that then they need to make sure it is legally permissible. And just as Intercity cannot demand a vaccination certificate for their bus trip for a leisure passenger from Moeraki to Nae Nae, I don't think Air NZ can opt out of carrying filthy Fred, either.
You are quoting from the NZ Transport Agency. From my understanding, the NZ Transport Agency has no jurisdiction over Air NZ as the agency is only mandated for road/rail users. As an airline, Air NZ are governed by the Civil Aviation Authority.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 11:26 am
  #81  
 
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Originally Posted by LyingFlat
You are quoting from the NZ Transport Agency. From my understanding, the NZ Transport Agency has no jurisdiction over Air NZ as the agency is only mandated for road/rail users. As an airline, Air NZ are governed by the Civil Aviation Authority.
actually I posted links to the covid framework order and nzta. The order (law) as pasted above is what was enacted and it very clearly defines what a public transport service is (and is not).

The NZTA website link is referring to the Framework and, reiterating that vaccine certificates are not required to travel on public transport.

On covid19.govt.nz specifically on the traffic light system page the legislation as it relates to this is again spelled out:



The legislation spells out that, Air NZ and any other airline for that matter by virtue of the fact they fall into what the government has legally defined as a public transport service, is indeed public transport.

The legislation further spells out that vaccine certficates are not required, nor is distancing, nor are face masks.

I am not a legal expert but I donít think I need to be. This is very simple and very clear. And Air NZ are breaking the law.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 12:11 pm
  #82  
 
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So are you going to do anything about it? If not let’s move on.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 2:15 pm
  #83  
 
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Yep, and to be clear this isn't about Air NZ. It applies to any public transport operator. The difference was they decided to get a jump on mandating vaccines well before any of this was addressed. And, as a long time NZ loyal flier I'm picking on them as I don't often fly QF. I'd have the same beef if the local bus was making stuff up just because they wanted to. Fully intend to make sure the national carrier is not making access to NZ any harder than the government already has!
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 2:53 pm
  #84  
 
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I won’t hold my breath.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 3:25 pm
  #85  
 
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Originally Posted by cakiwi
actually I posted links to the covid framework order and nzta. The order (law) as pasted above is what was enacted and it very clearly defines what a public transport service is (and is not).

The NZTA website link is referring to the Framework and, reiterating that vaccine certificates are not required to travel on public transport.

On covid19.govt.nz specifically on the traffic light system page the legislation as it relates to this is again spelled out:



The legislation spells out that, Air NZ and any other airline for that matter by virtue of the fact they fall into what the government has legally defined as a public transport service, is indeed public transport.

The legislation further spells out that vaccine certficates are not required, nor is distancing, nor are face masks.

I am not a legal expert but I donít think I need to be. This is very simple and very clear. And Air NZ are breaking the law.
I don't see how they are breaking the law. Sure, there isn't a requirement to wear mask or have a vaccine certificate, but there isn't anything in the regulations/legislation prevent Air NZ - as a private enterprise - from making them a condition of carriage. Furthermore, Air NZ are not an 'essential service' in the context of the page you quoted. That page relates to public transport for the general public going about their daily life (shopping, doctor's visits etc). A member of the public is not going to be taking an Air NZ flight to go to the supermarket...




Similarly, there is no law that prevents you from being rude to a server in a restaurant. However, the restaurant can prohibit you from entering their premises (or indeed remove you from the premises) if you are rude to a server.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 4:28 pm
  #86  
 
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Originally Posted by LyingFlat
I don't see how they are breaking the law. Sure, there isn't a requirement to wear mask or have a vaccine certificate, but there isn't anything in the regulations/legislation prevent Air NZ - as a private enterprise - from making them a condition of carriage. Furthermore, Air NZ are not an 'essential service' in the context of the page you quoted. That page relates to public transport for the general public going about their daily life (shopping, doctor's visits etc). A member of the public is not going to be taking an Air NZ flight to go to the supermarket...




Similarly, there is no law that prevents you from being rude to a server in a restaurant. However, the restaurant can prohibit you from entering their premises (or indeed remove you from the premises) if you are rude to a server.
There is a law that defines what is a public transport service. I pasted the clause from the order above.

However another entity wants to cherry pick, highlight, omit or whatever, parts of legislated definitions is kind of moot.

The purpose of why the government had to define what is a public transport service is one thing, but its actual text is the law. I assume the intent was to make sure there weren't obstacles for those most in need. It may well be that we could all make a distinction that says someone wanting to take a joyride to Heathrow from Hamilton is hardly in the same need of transportation as someone who does not own a car, and needing a bus ride to the chemist for their prescription. I get it. But, for better or worse, the law doesn't make that distinction. It doesn't say a long bus trip doesn't count, and a short hop on a train to the supermarket does. It doesn't exclude someone wanting to go to Britomart and then spend all day gallavanting around the city on rail. It does make some specific exclusions. A school bus for example. But a plane is not one that is excluded.

It says pretty clearly if the transport provider is one that is regularly available to the public, then it is legally defined, at least in this recent legislated order, as being included in the group of entities that cannot refuse passage, carriage or service based on a vaccine certificate or masks or distancing.

I do not believe the business entry requirements or in this case conditions of carriage get to be elevated above the laws of the land. Wouldn't that also mean Air NZ could say "you don't have to wear seatbelts or listen to the crew instructions or follow the lighted signs or placards, and, heck, if you want to light up a fag, go for it, cause they're our conditions of Carriage, and even though CAA have made them law, we have decided to write conditions that let us opt out of the laws we don't like"?!

Ridiculous example I know, but it makes the point. Law is superior to a private businesses own rules. And the latter cannot overrule the former.

My hunch is they're trying to, and good on em for giving it a go. But, I think they'll come unstuck.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 5:03 pm
  #87  
 
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In your earlier post you promised you were going to make them become unstuck. Let us know how that goes.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 6:16 pm
  #88  
 
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Originally Posted by Eltham
In your earlier post you promised you were going to make them become unstuck. Let us know how that goes.
I made no such promise. You asked me if i planned to do anything about it and i replied "yep". You also said you wouldnt be holding your breath. I am happy to keep you updated. It's not a crusade but I do like equity for those who are lumped into a category together. It may not be my preference for a bus line to have to let unvaxxed people on board but they're doing so in abiding by the law. It's unfair on those operators to not have an option to opt out so hopefully that can be corrected. I can't control the outcome of it but as most of this is fresh legislation among many daily changes to rules, regulations, outbreaks etc it has been hard for us all to keep up. Or maybe not others, but it has been for me.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 6:22 pm
  #89  
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Also remember when the courts in NZ evaluate the law they also look at the intent of the law and guidance statements made in the house as the law is passed.

If you evaluate in the way that the NZ legal system applies the law. It is clear for the vaccine pass public transport is the intracity/intraregional transport. So international travel is clearly not within the supporting statements of the legislation.

If you see this as problem go find lawyer and have a go. Will most probably just find that you will end up on the list of people AirNZ doesn't want as customers and the case will be moot.

You mention QANTAS umm they require vaccination for international travel as well.
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Old Feb 9, 2022, 7:45 pm
  #90  
 
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All this talk about the law as if that is the be all and end all. In many things covid related the law is a travesty.
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