US DOT rule applicability

Old Apr 8, 2020, 4:52 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by usedtobeimportant
We need to know the name of the rule/law so we can reference it to their agents.
Flight Delays & Cancellations. DOT does not say it is a law, rules or guidance.
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Old Apr 8, 2020, 4:52 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by usedtobeimportant
I think I got the same guy. I could tell from his first words he didn't want to give a refund so I just hung up. Second try got a cluess rep who didn't even know what DOT was!

Third time was a charm. Agent knew the rule (but mumbled its name so I never got it). We need to know the name of the rule/law so we can reference it to their agents.

@Skyler2718 Did they really ask you if you were a US citizen? That's bizzare. Is he implying green card holders and visa holders are not covered by DOT rules.
Yes he did, his name was David
and he even went on to say the law depends on where you purchased the ticket from or your citizenship . NZ and AUS customers only get credit or cancellation fee will apply. I asked him why air nz would treat their own ppl so badly ( being a born and breed kiwi myself but living in Aus ) and his response was that was the rules 🤷🏻‍♀️
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Old Apr 8, 2020, 5:25 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Skyler2718
I asked him why air nz would treat their own ppl so badly ( being a born and breed kiwi myself but living in Aus ) and his response was that was the rules 🤷🏻‍♀️
FWIW - while what he said related to the U.S. is indeed incorrect, he was actually correct on why NZ treats their own people badly.

NZ is majorly owned by the NZ Government, even it operates independently. To say whatever NZ is doing without the Government's sanction would be unbelievable, especially with the $900 million loan provided.
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Old Apr 8, 2020, 7:58 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by garykung
FWIW - while what he said related to the U.S. is indeed incorrect, he was actually correct on why NZ treats their own people badly.

NZ is majorly owned by the NZ Government, even it operates independently. To say whatever NZ is doing without the Government's sanction would be unbelievable, especially with the $900 million loan provided.
The Government explicitly keeps it AirNZ shareholding at arms length. To the point they will not nominate any directors. Though will vote for directors.

This loan agreement was again performed at arms length. And the conditions are public.
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Old Apr 8, 2020, 9:58 pm
  #35  
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Originally Posted by nzkarit
The Government explicitly keeps it AirNZ shareholding at arms length. To the point they will not nominate any directors. Though will vote for directors.

This loan agreement was again performed at arms length. And the conditions are public.
I am not saying that the NZ Government did not act without arms length.

However, as a regulatory body and majority owner of an airline, to say that the NZ Government is not aware of the situation is false (as it has been reported by Stuff at least 2 days ago). Furthermore, the NZ Government could have imposed any sort of emergency reliefs for impacted customers. But the NZ Government did not act. So if you tell me that what NZ has done is without the NZ Government's sanction is false.
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Old Apr 8, 2020, 10:20 pm
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Originally Posted by garykung
I am not saying that the NZ Government did not act without arms length.

However, as a regulatory body and majority owner of an airline, to say that the NZ Government is not aware of the situation is false (as it has been reported by Stuff at least 2 days ago). Furthermore, the NZ Government could have imposed any sort of emergency reliefs for impacted customers. But the NZ Government did not act. So if you tell me that what NZ has done is without the NZ Government's sanction is false.
Also opens a can of worms. I have non refundable hotel bookings. Should I get a refund for those seeing the hotel is only allowed to be open for essential business & a pleasure trip isn't essential? Where should the govt draw the line of who to force?

Also Govt wants AirNZ & other businesses to be able to trade their way out. Removing all money from business is not the way to do that.

Though looking forward should the Govt, NZX, FMA look at introducing rules like 6 months revenue in bank before dividend or share buyback to make businesses more resilient to earthquakes, floods, and other abnormal events? That is something for discussion later.
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 12:21 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by nzkarit
Also opens a can of worms. I have non refundable hotel bookings. Should I get a refund for those seeing the hotel is only allowed to be open for essential business & a pleasure trip isn't essential? Where should the govt draw the line of who to force?
Well...I won't go too far. Bottom line - it is about a government pushing an associated entity (owner > subsidy).

Originally Posted by nzkarit
Also Govt wants AirNZ & other businesses to be able to trade their way out. Removing all money from business is not the way to do that.
Hence, the sanction.
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 4:57 am
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Had 3 agents and 2 emails saying no refunds and they're 'consulting legal'.

Has anyone gone to disputes tribunal re this?
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 5:37 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Hector99
Has anyone gone to disputes tribunal re this?
It is a DOT rule. So you will have to file a complaint with DOT (i.e. the U.S.), not New Zealand.
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 6:32 am
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Hector99
Had 3 agents and 2 emails saying no refunds and they're 'consulting legal'.

Has anyone gone to disputes tribunal re this?
What is your situation? Ie flights dates staus
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 8:00 pm
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So a nz passenger queried for a refund for an ex NZ to US flight under DOT regs and got told a refund under DOT regs only applies to US citizens and flights booked in the US. They went on to advise in regulation 15.5 it states this.

I'm yet to locate reg 15.5 but perhaps someone might be more familiar and able to confirm if DOT regs apply to US citizens and flights booked in the US only.....that is the line NZ are taking at the moment anyway.

Will do some more research and wait and see if they change their tune.
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 8:35 pm
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I was told reg 2.1!! I could also not locate that reg


WLG-AKL-IAH-ATL on one ticket NZ then UA
IAD-IAH one ticket UA
IAH-SYD one ticket UA
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Hector99
I was told reg 2.1!! I could also not locate that reg


WLG-AKL-IAH-ATL on one ticket NZ then UA
IAD-IAH one ticket UA
IAH-SYD one ticket UA
would be nice if they can actually provide or back up what they are quoting. This was a simple CHC-AKL-HNL return
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 9:04 pm
  #44  
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1. It's not up to NZ phone agents to provide copies of the law to you.
2. A 30-second internet search produces a copy of the US DOT Warning Letter of 3 April detailing the rules (which have been in effect since 2011) and making it very clear that they apply to tickets originating in or destined to the US https://www.transportation.gov/sites...3%202020_0.pdf/

So, what to do:

1. Initiate a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank). Be prepared to provide a copy of your e-ticket receipt, the flight cancellation notice, and a 1-sentence summary of your request and denial (better to do this in writing, but too late now).
2. File a complaint with US DOT (online form).
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Old Apr 9, 2020, 9:06 pm
  #45  
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Conditions of Carriage here . "Rule 15.5" down the list to the bottom. The ongoing question is does DOT technically trump their own local conditions of carriage. It may do but it may also take the first test case to fall either way before this all gets tidied up. For now ANZ are sitting in the grey zone and relying on customers not to push this - for obvious implications.

https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/conditions-of-carriage
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