FlyerTalk Forums

FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/index.php)
-   Air New Zealand | Air Points (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-new-zealand-air-points-440/)
-   -   AKL-SYD-PER mixed class booking on Air NZ - QF codeshare (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-new-zealand-air-points/1941264-akl-syd-per-mixed-class-booking-air-nz-qf-codeshare.html)

scotty1314 Nov 18, 18 11:51 pm

AKL-SYD-PER mixed class booking on Air NZ - QF codeshare
 
I was downgraded by Air New Zealand from Business to Economy on a two stage flight with the second leg a codeshare flight with Qantas. I had an Air New Zealand business class ticket bought on their website which carries no alert to the possibility of a downgrade. Air New Zealand have refused to offer compensation and were of no help in obtaining the contracted quality of travel from Qantas.

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 12:09 am

Why were you downgraded?

Air NZ's have a policy for downgrades whether it be a cancellation or oversold flights - there has to be something you aren't telling us because your story doesn't stack up nor match their policy.

scotty1314 Nov 19, 18 12:28 am

I have no idea why they downgraded me and they did not offer an alternative flight matching the advertised and purchased conditions. It looks like a case of breach of contract but I do not have the resources to sue them.

Mwenenzi Nov 19, 18 12:33 am

What was the QF route & aircraft type?
Were the flights on time or delayed?

LondonElite Nov 19, 18 12:34 am

I agree there must be more to this story. What are the exact details? Why canít you just write to them and ask for downgrade compensation?

scotty1314 Nov 19, 18 12:39 am

I had a half hour phone conversation with them on 12th November. No offer of compensation or alternative flight. I wrote to them on 12th November but have received no reply to this. The flight was in two legs with the second leg a codeshare Air New Zealand/Qantas operated by Qantas. It looks like Air New Zealand take no responsibility for what Qantas does even though the contract is directly with Air New Zealand.

Mwenenzi Nov 19, 18 12:43 am


Originally Posted by scotty1314 (Post 30444361)
I had a half hour phone conversation with them on 12th November. No offer of compensation or alternative flight. I wrote to them on 12th November but have received no reply to this. The flight was in two legs with the second leg a codeshare Air New Zealand/Qantas operated by Qantas. It looks like Air New Zealand take no responsibility for what Qantas does even though the contract is directly with Air New Zealand.

What was the QF route & aircraft type?
Were the flights on time or delayed?

Details do matter

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 12:50 am

You still haven't provided any details.

As I've mentioned Air NZ's downgrade policy is very clear and I don't think I've ever seen another FT thread ever (nor seen mention anywhere else) of Air NZ not abiding by that policy.

There has to be more to this story, yet you're not providing any more information. Should be pretty easy to tell us why Air NZ downgraded you because it was obviously a Trans Tasman flight - was it a change of aircraft?

skywardhunter Nov 19, 18 5:10 am

Sounds to me like OP hasn't flown yet but has now noticed the 2nd leg is in Economy.

nzkarit Nov 19, 18 11:18 am

Last time I had an cancellation the person on the phone proactively tried to tweak booking classes on the different sectors to get the biggest refund.

PER AKL WLG became PER SYD WLG

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 11:30 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 30444737)
Sounds to me like OP hasn't flown yet but has now noticed the 2nd leg is in Economy.

I got the impression both legs were downgraded, but since they just seem happy to soapbox rather than provide any info it's hard to know.

kyanar Nov 19, 18 12:47 pm

I'm placing bets on the QF flight being a regional operated by QantasLink or Jetstar which happens to be on a craft that doesn't even have a Business class.

Though on QF domestic, "Business" class is a bit of .a stretch. I personally coined the term "Perspex Class" for it, because it's really just a slightly bigger seat with a sheet of perspex separating you from the plebs.

Mwenenzi Nov 19, 18 1:22 pm


Originally Posted by kyanar (Post 30446092)
I'm placing bets on the QF flight being a regional operated by QantasLink or Jetstar which happens to be on a craft that doesn't even have a Business class..

Agree. That's why I asked for route & aircraft type.
Would not expect to be on JQ, as the Air NZ-QF arrangement is for QF codeshares (NZ flight numbers) on Au domestic routes. JQ is a separate airline (when is suits QF).

kyanar Nov 19, 18 2:43 pm


Originally Posted by Mwenenzi (Post 30446204)
Agree. That's why I asked for route & aircraft type.
Would not expect to be on JQ, as the Air NZ-QF arrangement is for QF codeshares (NZ flight numbers) on Au domestic routes. JQ is a separate airline (when is suits QF).

Good point. Something has to go very wrong for JQ metal to be operating a QF route. Still holding a regional route as most likely cause.

It's a bit precious complaining about getting an economy connection on AU domestic regional routes given how little difference there is between Y and J class on QF's CRJ and 717 fleet (if there even is multiple classes at all). Were they expecting a lie flat? Pretty sure that's only on east to west coastal routes.

I've gotten economy connections on in-alliance TPAC routes before with NZ, it's a common thing.

scotty1314 Nov 19, 18 4:55 pm

Flights: NZ 105 Auckland to Sydney, Aircraft 777-200, Business class confirmed;
QF 583/ NZ 7583, Sydney to Perth, Aircraft A330 200; Downgraded to economy class.
Ticket purchased Air New Zealand Business class, Auckland to Perth.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 19, 18 5:11 pm

Can you explain how and when the downgrade happened?
A few days prior? On check-in? At the gate?

What were you told at the time?

nzkarit Nov 19, 18 5:22 pm

What date did you fly? Was it one of the days the 738 did the route?

Mwenenzi Nov 19, 18 5:29 pm


Originally Posted by scotty1314 (Post 30446877)
Flights: NZ 105 Auckland to Sydney, Aircraft 777-200, Business class confirmed;
QF 583/ NZ 7583, Sydney to Perth, Aircraft A330 200; Downgraded to economy class.
Ticket purchased Air New Zealand Business class, Auckland to Perth.

Thanks for the details.
NZ105 16:05 17:40.
QF583 19:55 21:50 is the last SYD PER flight of the day. Most days there are 8 flights.
(Last MEL PER flight leaves at 20:30)

What did QF (NZ?) tell you & when?
Any options given?

lokijuh Nov 19, 18 5:36 pm

Contact Qantas, they will no doubt do something for you regarding the difference between what NZ paid them for your J seat and the full Y fare for the sector, by sending you a bill for the difference :p. (I am joking, just).

Thai-Kiwi Nov 19, 18 7:07 pm

1 Attachment(s)
It is possible the Original Poster purchased a business class ticket AKL-SYD-PER at the 'usual price' but with the SYD-PER sector in economy.

I just made a dummy booking and it was quite easy to find this circumstance, and it isn't all that obvious that the second sector is in economy - especially since the price is unchanged from options on the same day where both sectors are in biz.

For the OP, what is the letter code on your e-ticket for the SYD-PER sector? That will tell us a lot about what has happened.

I produced this composite screenshot to show the dummy booking I made earlier - the red boxes are added by me and highlight the economy cabin on SYD-PER on this 'business class' ticket:

scotty1314 Nov 19, 18 7:25 pm

Thanks. That may be the problem. The fare class Sydney to Perth was described as "V" when the ticket reached me four days after I booked it. There is no warning of this downgrade on Air New Zealand's website and the box which you highlighted in red did not appear on my ticket. Do you know if this is a recent addition? At best, this is deceptive advertising and at worst, it is breach of contract. Another galling factor is that I could have bought a guaranteed business class ticket with Virgin via Melbourne for $100 less.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 19, 18 7:32 pm

Unfortunately, it is probably best categorised 'caveat emptor' as you agreed to buy this fare, with those details - and I doubt you have any recourse.

Legally, I doubt there is anything you could do - try 'Fair Go'? Maybe those of a legal inclination can provide their thoughts if you want to pursue this....?

Treat it as a (painful) learning experience to be fastidious in checking details before pressing 'buy'.

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 8:16 pm


Originally Posted by scotty1314 (Post 30447231)
Thanks. That may be the problem. The fare class Sydney to Perth was described as "V" when the ticket reached me four days after I booked it. There is no warning of this downgrade on Air New Zealand's website and the box which you highlighted in red did not appear on my ticket. Do you know if this is a recent addition? At best, this is deceptive advertising and at worst, it is breach of contract. Another galling factor is that I could have bought a guaranteed business class ticket with Virgin via Melbourne for $100 less.

The red box was added for the image - it is not present on the website.

It would seem highly likely you've simply not fully read the details of the ticket class or fare before buying it, so it's certainly something to be aware of of before clicking the buy button because flights on BP on NZ metal the whole way are around the same price or cheaper.

This is not a "downgrade" as such. It certainly is listed as economy on the website, and is consistent with Air NZ notifications and text won other partner airlines when you book a ticket that has a different class of service on a partner airline.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 19, 18 8:20 pm


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30447357)
...because flights on BP on NZ metal the whole way are around the same price or cheaper.

this may not always be true...my search for Nov had the direct Air New Zealand AKL-PER flight one way in biz significantly more expensive than options with a QF domestic biz sector.

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 8:25 pm

To add to this looking at the fare guide and rules both J and V are used for Australian connections. J can be used for business on Qantas when there is availability - if there is no availability you'll be booked into V.

The price is the same for AKL-SYD-PER regardless of whether you're booked into J or V.

The Air NZ website says if you're booked into V and says you'll have economy on the QF flight. If you're booked in J there is no mention of this.

NZbutterfly Nov 19, 18 8:41 pm

I remember looking at the Qantas site previously and seeing 2 stage flights with the 2nd in economy and costing the same as a full business class fare. I had to do a double-take. I know they charge business class rates for award seats even if the longest segment is in economy and you have a 1hr flight in 'business'. It's a crap redemption but I was shocked to see the same translated to revenue flights.

Anyway, it's worth taking note of the pop up boxes when they appear and reading them thoroughly. Especially with this Qantas partnership. I don't recall seeing that with the VA partnership.

bce1 Nov 19, 18 9:01 pm

I have the same problem - booked flights to Dallas with a colleague - he booked 5 minutes before me, Got J all the way - including domestic United. When I booked in J, only offered Y on one of the domestic legs and J on the other - price exactly the same. Told by NZ that United only release 2-3 seats per flight for tied fares with NZ and once they are gone, they are gone and defaults to Y, despite being the same price. It is hard to see if you don't look carefully when booking, but it is there. I think that is likely what has happened here. It looks like a J booking all the way until you look at the ticket - it is the small print, but it can be hard to see.

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 19, 18 10:29 pm

Yep. When booking J for any multi leg trip, I always check the details to see if there is mixed cabins in there.
​​​​​​
On United, they were selling $6k return business class fares to LAX... That being return business to Australia and then return Y to LAX! No thanks!
​​​

Mwenenzi Nov 19, 18 10:46 pm


Originally Posted by scotty1314 (Post 30447231)
Thanks. That may be the problem. The fare class Sydney to Perth was described as "V" when the ticket reached me four days after I booked it

https://www.qantas.com/fflyer/dyn/pr...4-october-2017

Fare Type ----Frequent Flyer Category----Booking Class
Red e-Deal----- Discount Economy------ E, G, L, N, O, Q, S, V
But the QF fare booking may not map 100% to NZ

Am sure you will look carefully next time, or not fly a codeshare

NZbutterfly Nov 19, 18 11:45 pm

I don't understand how it's even legal to charge business class fares for economy flights? Doesn't make any sense to me.

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 11:58 pm


Originally Posted by NZbutterfly (Post 30447742)
I don't understand how it's even legal to charge business class fares for economy flights? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Well you're kinda not paying business class $$ fares though. Looking at it the cheapest available standard QF fares from SYD-PER are around A$2500 which is way more than the NZ$1500 standard fares you can fly AKL-SYD-PER for in business if you select a day that you're booked in business and not economy on QF.

How long before Australians start flying to AKL just to fly to PER for less than they pay in their own country?!

brenrox Nov 20, 18 12:41 am

Same applies with ex-AUS bookings to the USA on NZ, often cheaper via AKL, than AKL direct.

I think its pretty deceitful, especially when you consider that most people won't be able to notice the difference simply by looking at price.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 1:18 am


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30447766)
Well you're kinda not paying business class $$ fares though. Looking at it the cheapest available standard QF fares from SYD-PER are around A$2500 which is way more than the NZ$1500 standard fares you can fly AKL-SYD-PER for in business if you select a day that you're booked in business and not economy on QF.

How long before Australians start flying to AKL just to fly to PER for less than they pay in their own country?!

I think it is more pertinent to look at fares from NZ to Australia. The 'standard' oneway fare AKL-PER seems around $1450 irrespective of routing, and far enough in advance there seems to be no or little variation in price.

But the fares I saw in Dec and Jan typically had NZ direct $1800-$2500, and mixed carrier biz fares on NZ/QF around $1500-$1800. I saw one fare for $2500 AKL-MEL (NZ J) thence MEL-PER (QF Y) .... so it can go either way in terms of price, but 99% of normal pax would simply assume at the prices these fares were in biz for both sectors.

There are plenty of examples similar to what you suggest - where domestic, or hub, flights are more expensive than if sold for a different market. Example, BKK-AKL-BKK on TG J was around $US 3500 when I was working in Thailand, however the fare HAN-BKK-AKL-BKK-HAN was $US 2100. However, it was too much of a pain to buy in Vietnam and and get visas etc.

Remember, in the late 80s it was sometimes cheaper to fly internationally CHC-SYD-AKL, than it was to fly CHC-AKL - back in the 'bad old days' when domestic subsidised international for Air NZ (but I digress)....

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 1:23 am


Originally Posted by NZbutterfly (Post 30447742)
I don't understand how it's even legal to charge business class fares for economy flights? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps an analogy is when you book a multi sector biz award flight, where biz is not available in one sector. In most mileage programs you still get charged the points/miles/APD as if the whole journey was in biz.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 1:24 am

I think it's pretty poor this is not more clearly highlighted and I sympathise with the OP

I think whoever suggested fair go is worth a try

Would be fun to watch! Certainly more entertaining than NZ latest trashy "safety" video

sbiddle Nov 20, 18 11:41 am


Originally Posted by oranjemakker (Post 30447891)
I think it's pretty poor this is not more clearly highlighted and I sympathise with the OP

I think whoever suggested fair go is worth a try

Would be fun to watch! Certainly more entertaining than NZ latest trashy "safety" video

How do you should it be highlighted better than it is at present? IMHO it's fairly well presented with a different background colour so it's not just standard text.

I'm curious how people think it should be presented because It's something I'll mention it to a friend there when I catch up with them next.

I just looked at some random flights on NZ, QF, UA and AA and have snippets below. I think both NZ and QF do a very good job showing the mixed flights and making it clear compared to the two examples from AA and UA.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...23f3c3013f.png

Here's how QF present the same scenario

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...e77de22110.png

Here's how United present the same scenario - you need to click on the "mixed cabin" text to see a popup showing the UA flight as business and Air NZ as economy.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...cb19231a29.png

And here's how American present the same scenario - despite me looking extensively everywhere there is not a single mention anywhere in the booking process that the JQ flight is only a single class of service in economy.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...4cda644d8e.png

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 20, 18 3:26 pm

Yeah I entirely disagree with everyone getting up in arms about this. Do I feel sorry for OP. Definitely. Easy mistake to make first time.

But it is pretty clearly sign posted as per industry standard. And I am surprised this is coming as such a shock to ffs as over in the USA this happens all the time if you try and book J - I have had mixed fare bookings a lot, and it's not really any better sign posted here? Definitely not fair go worthy.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 4:32 pm


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30449451)
How do you should it be highlighted better than it is at present? IMHO it's fairly well presented with a different background colour so it's not just standard text.

I'm curious how people think it should be presented because It's something I'll mention it to a friend there when I catch up with them next.

I just looked at some random flights on NZ, QF, UA and AA and have snippets below. I think both NZ and QF do a very good job showing the mixed flights and making it clear compared to the two examples from AA and UA.



Here's how QF present the same scenario



Here's how United present the same scenario - you need to click on the "mixed cabin" text to see a popup showing the UA flight as business and Air NZ as economy.



And here's how American present the same scenario - despite me looking extensively everywhere there is not a single mention anywhere in the booking process that the JQ flight is only a single class of service in economy.

Sorry but outside of the frequent flyer world we all live in, and agreed its not an issue for me personally, but from an everyman scenario its totally misleading. The Air NZ screenshot your provided says clearly its a "business" fare. That is not what they are providing. These airlines are the same people who tried to deceptively add credit card charges, taxes etc etc and not show it transparently and have to be continually regulated.

if you went to McDonalds and ordered a big mac, and they then gave you a cheese burger because they were short on patties, but still charged you for the Big mac, wouldn't that be deceptive? A footnote on the receipt does not resolve this.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 4:35 pm


Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer (Post 30450257)
Yeah I entirely disagree with everyone getting up in arms about this. Do I feel sorry for OP. Definitely. Easy mistake to make first time.

But it is pretty clearly sign posted as per industry standard. And I am surprised this is coming as such a shock to ffs as over in the USA this happens all the time if you try and book J - I have had mixed fare bookings a lot, and it's not really any better sign posted here? Definitely not fair go worthy.

The point is, i am guessing the OP is not a frequent flyer, and he is coming here to ask for advice from frequent flyers. To turn around and say you should know better is hardly helpful. Put yoursefl in the shoes of someone who doesn't fly regularly and books a business fare, it should be business. Simples.
To me this could be perfect Fair Go territory. If a flight has a leg that is not business, it should be sold as a Mixed fare, clearly marked at the top, not as a footnote IMO

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 20, 18 4:42 pm

Well no I think that is a terrible example? Perhaps the example could be a lot closer if McDonalds had a written note next to the Big Mac combo saying "these patties will be cheeseburger patties, not Big Mac patties" - but if they didn't warn you? That would be entirely unfair and not even close to being an honest comparison.

Mixed class fares are just a way of life. There is literally no way around this. Sometimes J fares simply don't exist the whole way but they give you the option to book it partially. If you book a J fare CHC to LAX, guess what? The CHC flight is, shock horror, in economy, because no J class exists. No one gets up-in-arms about that. Should Air NZ not list that as a business fare because it isn't J all the way through?

I do think that they could be better sign posted. I am not convinced that they're done like this though to get people to accidentally book the airfares. I think that this is done to improve conversions by creating a seamless, pretty experience. The result in the occasional person might miss it - though TBH while I'm not surprised, I've never seen anyone actually miss it before until this thread.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 8:30 am.


This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.