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-   -   AKL-SYD-PER mixed class booking on Air NZ - QF codeshare (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-new-zealand-air-points/1941264-akl-syd-per-mixed-class-booking-air-nz-qf-codeshare.html)

sbiddle Nov 19, 18 11:58 pm


Originally Posted by NZbutterfly (Post 30447742)
I don't understand how it's even legal to charge business class fares for economy flights? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Well you're kinda not paying business class $$ fares though. Looking at it the cheapest available standard QF fares from SYD-PER are around A$2500 which is way more than the NZ$1500 standard fares you can fly AKL-SYD-PER for in business if you select a day that you're booked in business and not economy on QF.

How long before Australians start flying to AKL just to fly to PER for less than they pay in their own country?!

brenrox Nov 20, 18 12:41 am

Same applies with ex-AUS bookings to the USA on NZ, often cheaper via AKL, than AKL direct.

I think its pretty deceitful, especially when you consider that most people won't be able to notice the difference simply by looking at price.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 1:18 am


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30447766)
Well you're kinda not paying business class $$ fares though. Looking at it the cheapest available standard QF fares from SYD-PER are around A$2500 which is way more than the NZ$1500 standard fares you can fly AKL-SYD-PER for in business if you select a day that you're booked in business and not economy on QF.

How long before Australians start flying to AKL just to fly to PER for less than they pay in their own country?!

I think it is more pertinent to look at fares from NZ to Australia. The 'standard' oneway fare AKL-PER seems around $1450 irrespective of routing, and far enough in advance there seems to be no or little variation in price.

But the fares I saw in Dec and Jan typically had NZ direct $1800-$2500, and mixed carrier biz fares on NZ/QF around $1500-$1800. I saw one fare for $2500 AKL-MEL (NZ J) thence MEL-PER (QF Y) .... so it can go either way in terms of price, but 99% of normal pax would simply assume at the prices these fares were in biz for both sectors.

There are plenty of examples similar to what you suggest - where domestic, or hub, flights are more expensive than if sold for a different market. Example, BKK-AKL-BKK on TG J was around $US 3500 when I was working in Thailand, however the fare HAN-BKK-AKL-BKK-HAN was $US 2100. However, it was too much of a pain to buy in Vietnam and and get visas etc.

Remember, in the late 80s it was sometimes cheaper to fly internationally CHC-SYD-AKL, than it was to fly CHC-AKL - back in the 'bad old days' when domestic subsidised international for Air NZ (but I digress)....

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 1:23 am


Originally Posted by NZbutterfly (Post 30447742)
I don't understand how it's even legal to charge business class fares for economy flights? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps an analogy is when you book a multi sector biz award flight, where biz is not available in one sector. In most mileage programs you still get charged the points/miles/APD as if the whole journey was in biz.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 1:24 am

I think it's pretty poor this is not more clearly highlighted and I sympathise with the OP

I think whoever suggested fair go is worth a try

Would be fun to watch! Certainly more entertaining than NZ latest trashy "safety" video

sbiddle Nov 20, 18 11:41 am


Originally Posted by oranjemakker (Post 30447891)
I think it's pretty poor this is not more clearly highlighted and I sympathise with the OP

I think whoever suggested fair go is worth a try

Would be fun to watch! Certainly more entertaining than NZ latest trashy "safety" video

How do you should it be highlighted better than it is at present? IMHO it's fairly well presented with a different background colour so it's not just standard text.

I'm curious how people think it should be presented because It's something I'll mention it to a friend there when I catch up with them next.

I just looked at some random flights on NZ, QF, UA and AA and have snippets below. I think both NZ and QF do a very good job showing the mixed flights and making it clear compared to the two examples from AA and UA.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...23f3c3013f.png

Here's how QF present the same scenario

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...e77de22110.png

Here's how United present the same scenario - you need to click on the "mixed cabin" text to see a popup showing the UA flight as business and Air NZ as economy.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...cb19231a29.png

And here's how American present the same scenario - despite me looking extensively everywhere there is not a single mention anywhere in the booking process that the JQ flight is only a single class of service in economy.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...4cda644d8e.png

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 20, 18 3:26 pm

Yeah I entirely disagree with everyone getting up in arms about this. Do I feel sorry for OP. Definitely. Easy mistake to make first time.

But it is pretty clearly sign posted as per industry standard. And I am surprised this is coming as such a shock to ffs as over in the USA this happens all the time if you try and book J - I have had mixed fare bookings a lot, and it's not really any better sign posted here? Definitely not fair go worthy.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 4:32 pm


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30449451)
How do you should it be highlighted better than it is at present? IMHO it's fairly well presented with a different background colour so it's not just standard text.

I'm curious how people think it should be presented because It's something I'll mention it to a friend there when I catch up with them next.

I just looked at some random flights on NZ, QF, UA and AA and have snippets below. I think both NZ and QF do a very good job showing the mixed flights and making it clear compared to the two examples from AA and UA.



Here's how QF present the same scenario



Here's how United present the same scenario - you need to click on the "mixed cabin" text to see a popup showing the UA flight as business and Air NZ as economy.



And here's how American present the same scenario - despite me looking extensively everywhere there is not a single mention anywhere in the booking process that the JQ flight is only a single class of service in economy.

Sorry but outside of the frequent flyer world we all live in, and agreed its not an issue for me personally, but from an everyman scenario its totally misleading. The Air NZ screenshot your provided says clearly its a "business" fare. That is not what they are providing. These airlines are the same people who tried to deceptively add credit card charges, taxes etc etc and not show it transparently and have to be continually regulated.

if you went to McDonalds and ordered a big mac, and they then gave you a cheese burger because they were short on patties, but still charged you for the Big mac, wouldn't that be deceptive? A footnote on the receipt does not resolve this.

oranjemakker Nov 20, 18 4:35 pm


Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer (Post 30450257)
Yeah I entirely disagree with everyone getting up in arms about this. Do I feel sorry for OP. Definitely. Easy mistake to make first time.

But it is pretty clearly sign posted as per industry standard. And I am surprised this is coming as such a shock to ffs as over in the USA this happens all the time if you try and book J - I have had mixed fare bookings a lot, and it's not really any better sign posted here? Definitely not fair go worthy.

The point is, i am guessing the OP is not a frequent flyer, and he is coming here to ask for advice from frequent flyers. To turn around and say you should know better is hardly helpful. Put yoursefl in the shoes of someone who doesn't fly regularly and books a business fare, it should be business. Simples.
To me this could be perfect Fair Go territory. If a flight has a leg that is not business, it should be sold as a Mixed fare, clearly marked at the top, not as a footnote IMO

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 20, 18 4:42 pm

Well no I think that is a terrible example? Perhaps the example could be a lot closer if McDonalds had a written note next to the Big Mac combo saying "these patties will be cheeseburger patties, not Big Mac patties" - but if they didn't warn you? That would be entirely unfair and not even close to being an honest comparison.

Mixed class fares are just a way of life. There is literally no way around this. Sometimes J fares simply don't exist the whole way but they give you the option to book it partially. If you book a J fare CHC to LAX, guess what? The CHC flight is, shock horror, in economy, because no J class exists. No one gets up-in-arms about that. Should Air NZ not list that as a business fare because it isn't J all the way through?

I do think that they could be better sign posted. I am not convinced that they're done like this though to get people to accidentally book the airfares. I think that this is done to improve conversions by creating a seamless, pretty experience. The result in the occasional person might miss it - though TBH while I'm not surprised, I've never seen anyone actually miss it before until this thread.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 6:34 pm

In the OP's case, the 3:45 leg in J was followed by a 5:20 leg in Y - so the preponderance of the journey was in Y. So I suspect there is tolerance/acceptance/understanding for cases where there is a shorter sector in Y with long haul is J; but less so the other way. Who would knowingly pay a J fare AKL-LHR, and be accepting that only AKL-SYD was in J, and the rest of the trip was in Y.....?

Mixed class fares would by fine, if priced proportionately lower than 'J all the way' - no wonder the OP finds it galling to pay the J->J price but only get J->Y cabins.

Where the balance between cabins is less weighted to the J long haul, then I think pricing should be adjusted downwards. I'd be interested to know what the obstacles might be for this to occur?

Those that 'miss it' probably are not actively frequenting travel forums and/or too shy to offer their bad experience - human nature.

nzkarit Nov 20, 18 6:37 pm


Originally Posted by Thai-Kiwi (Post 30450900)
In the OP's case, the 3:45 leg in J was followed by a 5:20 leg in Y - so the preponderance of the journey was in Y. So I suspect there is tolerance/acceptance/understanding for cases where there is a shorter sector in Y, but the long haul is J.

Mixed class fares would by fine, if priced accordingly lower than 'J all the way' - no wonder the OP finds it galling to pay the J->J price but only get J->Y cabins.

Where the balance between cabins is less weighted to the J long haul, then I think pricing should be adjusted downwards. I'd be interested to know what the obstacles might be for this to occur?

Well the price for the QF sector depends on what QF charges NZ. If QF doesn't drop the price much there isn't room for NZ to drop the price.

kiwifrequentflyer Nov 20, 18 7:20 pm


Originally Posted by Thai-Kiwi (Post 30450900)
In the OP's case, the 3:45 leg in J was followed by a 5:20 leg in Y - so the preponderance of the journey was in Y. So I suspect there is tolerance/acceptance/understanding for cases where there is a shorter sector in Y with long haul is J; but less so the other way. Who would knowingly pay a J fare AKL-LHR, and be accepting that only AKL-SYD was in J, and the rest of the trip was in Y.....?

Mixed class fares would by fine, if priced proportionately lower than 'J all the way' - no wonder the OP finds it galling to pay the J->J price but only get J->Y cabins.

Where the balance between cabins is less weighted to the J long haul, then I think pricing should be adjusted downwards. I'd be interested to know what the obstacles might be for this to occur?

Those that 'miss it' probably are not actively frequenting travel forums and/or too shy to offer their bad experience - human nature.

Who would pay that? I have no clue but again, I'm offered it all the time by the airline industry. And again I've been offered worse deals like fly to Australia in J but sit in Y for the USA leg. Usually J is available in those cases for the USA leg, so if you pony up an extra $3-4k, you can also fly J to the USA. But you'll be presented with a cheaper 6k fare which is the mixed booking.

Here is the thing: it's just another option. It's another option to choose from.

Airlines want to present all options. And so for this option: where are they supposed to show it?

Are they supposed to show these fares to people that are searching for economy flights? That makes no sense. People searching for economy seats are much more price sensitive and it's almost insulting to present a business class fare to them that they can't afford but wish they could.

So where do you show this option? You show it to the people searching for business fares. You show them the option of the mixed classes. Should Air NZ not present mixed class tickets at all? What about the people that would rather have at least 1 leg in J?

brenrox Nov 20, 18 7:49 pm


Originally Posted by sbiddle (Post 30449451)
How do you should it be highlighted better than it is at present? IMHO it's fairly well presented with a different background colour so it's not just standard text.

I'm curious how people think it should be presented because It's something I'll mention it to a friend there when I catch up with them next.

I just looked at some random flights on NZ, QF, UA and AA and have snippets below. I think both NZ and QF do a very good job showing the mixed flights and making it clear compared to the two examples from AA and UA.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...23f3c3013f.png

At least bolding "Economy" would be a start. In TK's example, they state "Standard Seat", instead of Economy.

With the QF example, the Economy is beside the button where you will/are more likely to see it when you go to click to the next page and also in the summary on the right hand side.

Thai-Kiwi Nov 20, 18 8:14 pm


Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer (Post 30451025)
Airlines want to present all options. And so for this option: where are they supposed to show it??

I won't be drawn into a (heated) debate about whether presenting all such 'options' (where the majority of the journey is in economy) is actually ethical or sensible...


Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer (Post 30451025)
Are they supposed to show these fares to people that are searching for economy flights? That makes no sense. People searching for economy seats are much more price sensitive and it's almost insulting to present a business class fare to them that they can't afford but wish they could. ?

A corollary to your statement might be "Are they supposed to show these fares to people that are searching for business flights? That make no sense (as well). People searching for business seats are expecting a business cabin on all sectors, and it is almost insulting to present options that includes an economy cabin"


Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer (Post 30451025)
So where do you show this option? You show it to the people searching for business fares. You show them the option of the mixed classes. Should Air NZ not present mixed class tickets at all? What about the people that would rather have at least 1 leg in J?

It should be very easy to code a pop-up that says something like "We cannot offer a business seat in all sectors for your journey. If you wish to offered options with mixed business and economy class cabin, click here to proceed otherwise cancel back to the main booking page". Or perhaps the 'mixed fare' purchase process could include a dialog warning step along the lines "The fare you have selected contains a mix of economy and business cabins. Press 'I understand' to proceed or Cancel".

These are my starters for 10...


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