Steve Fenton

I just checked and I have taken 66 within Europe and 6 round trips to Asia in Biz with other airlines this year, these are all what KLM would have had before they totally P******D me off. 2 more RT to Asia booked and about 15-20 Euro flights to go this year.

Multiply that by the amount of people I know who do the same as me and it begins to add up.

They keep harping on about yields up etc, but any fool can sell on price, how come they never mention profit ??

Punters like me used to pay the price and go and was loyal to the airline and FF programme. Its people like this that make the profit, not the super low Y ticket brigade.

I was also at a meeting in Taipei some weeks ago hosted by the government and a employee of KLM was openly blaming Ryanair and easyjet for the redeuced level of service they have to offer now.

frankvb

I'd say people paying (near) full price and business class are indeed making the profit, however the low Y tickets also enable keeping up a high-quality network with lots of flights. Otherwise the choice would be quite simple - do only offer high service at a relatively high price, and stop trying to compete with LCCs. I think it should be possible to cater for both markets by a quality product for business travellers still preparing to pay for service and reliability, and a (relatively) low cost product for everyone else. It seemed that BMI were going to do this (with their 'modular' service) but as they abolished business class and service on most European flights I (and most on the bmi flyertalk board) don't think they have a clue...

Another development is obviously that lots of businesses are saving money on flights by not allowing business class or changeable tickets - the latter probably caused by the fact that it is often cheaper if you need to change a flight to simply throw away the ticket and buy a new one.

Blaming LCCs for having to offer a low quality service doesn't make any sense to me - lots of people are still prepared to pay a bit more for a better quality service, and I can't imagine that the cost for this bit of extra service cannot be recovered by asking a slightly higher fare. As well this competition is virtually non-existing on long-haul routes, and the service there has suffered as well. Looking at the number of US airlines in chapter 11 it is more likely that at the moment there are too many airlines all lowering the prices too much to attract more passengers.

What still puzzles me is that airlines think they can compete with LCCs when flying to airports with high taxes - as an example why does KLM (and AF) fly to LHR and not to one of the lower cost airports around London? Arguably US airlines do this to facilitate connections to Europe, but KLM and AF have their hubs elsewhere. Another good reason would be the availability of good public transport, but in this specific case e.g. LGW and STN have good train connections to London. The high taxes mean that fares have to be squeezed even lower to compete.

I haven't flown very often for a while, but did prefer to fly KLM to the US, even though this meant making one, sometimes 2 stopovers and wasn't the most convenient. Reason being the good FF program and the good service level. Now both reasons have dissapeared there is no incentive any more and I'll fly with whoever is the most convenient and offers the best service. I'm sure there are many people in the same situation that will now take their business elsewhere.

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM

Flying Dutchman was always the "deal closer" that made me consistently choose to fly KLM over other options. The earnestly nonchalant and wildy variable, quirky Dutch-style personal service (but including uncharacteristic generosity) was also seen as a benefit, a rather strange and often entertaining one.

Now that the unique KLM service is disappearing and FD is gone, there is very little reason to fly KLM when equivalent and superior choices abound.

I fly every week, but haven't flown KLM for a while. Frankly, I miss them. Surely, we are not the only ones???

yocko

As I have said before... I have given up on them. And it is very much like giving up an addiction. You don't want to stop, and then you have given up and you ask yourself, why didn't I do that years ago? And indeed the answer was flying dutchman... But C class on BA, LH and SQ are so much more pleasant. the only thing is the miles get split between OW and *A, but oh well...

As a work perk I get to fly F a lot, and still I stuck with KLM... silly silly me.

And now today i got the september newsletter which was fabulous, finally they admitted everything.... unbelievable... oh yeah, upgrades only on the most expensive tickets, and oh yeah 25% miles on some flights, and oh yeah changed lounge access, and oh yeah our call centre is a mess...

sad ****ers... I don't miss them. FA and service is always hit and miss, on any airline, but I am so happy i don't have to endure their selfrighteous bull**** any more..

I think they have lost out on 30.000 euro with me... but they seem to make their profit.. who cares...

johan rebel

With Europe Select KL has done the same. 3+3 Y seating, lousy pitch, insufficient carry-on storage space as well as mediocre catering and service combine to make it a full-fare economy class product at best. That's why they no longer dare call it business class.

Really? By e-mail or snail mail? I have yet to receive a newletter or transaction statement since FB's inception. On the other hand, I get one or more promotional e-mails just about every day.

My brother-in-law, a consulting engineer, is a very frequent flier and lifetime PE. He runs his own business and is completely free to choose which airlines to fly. No travel department or corporate deal to straightjacket him or his colleagues. Because of the impact of travel expenses on the bottom line of his small company, he usually goes for the lowest available fare, using miles to upgrade intercontinental segments where possible. The old (RoyalWing) Flying Dutchman program was very generous to him, and ensured that KL got most of his business. The new FD was not as good, but still generous enough to retain his loyalty. And now there is FB . . . . not only inferior in every way, but essentially worthless because upgrades from any fare are no longer allowed. Why pay extra for an S or B fare just on the off chance of a day-of-departure upgrade?

I should imagine that the purpose of an airline loyalty program is to stimulate frequent flyers to keep flying an specific airline or alliance in preference to the competition. Hence the word "loyalty". Now many frequent flyers don't have all that much to say when it comes to deciding which airline to fly, constrained as they are by travel managers, corporate deals and travel policy. All the more important, therefore, to retain the loyalty of those who are actually free to pick and choose. They may not fly on F, J and C fares all the time, but there are plenty of them that fill a lot of seats in the Y cabin. Qualifying for PE year after year when flying economy sure translates into a lot of RPKs for the airline. My brother-in-law should know, and so should I. Judging by FB, KLAF couldn't care less.

Johan

Jerene

That's like blaming the messenger. The low cost carriers have uncovered the fact that the majority of passengers want to be transported from X to Y as cheaply as possible. After all, it is better use of a limited travel budget to stay at a better hotel and eat better meals in Y than to pay totally out of proportion for somewhat better service and food on the plane.

By the way, as for reduced service, has anyone tried to fly SAS in eco lately? Believe me, they make KLM look good ...

Jerene

johan rebel

I'd rather have no service that reduced service. What's the point of trying to serve me an inedible sanwich along with 150 ml of some ghastly orange liquid? I'm not going to partake anyway.

Johan

Malaysian16

I have been so frustrated with FPoo - I have booked all the rest of my flights this year with BA for European trips and LH for my Asian trips. Am booking flights to the US for next year and am looking at UA to transport me. Have also booked a flight to NRT with SAS for next Spring.

There are also 2 of us FB Elite members in my household and we have both become Miles&More members in the last month with points racking up to Star Silver by end of this year and we're going to try to make it to Gold next year.

We are now looking to cash in all our FB miles - although this also seems impossible (so why collect more).

I'm just upset that I am going to miss the Blue-ness of KLM and its wonderful partner Malaysia Airlines - in exchange for the rather more sombre Brown on Lufthansa!

(mind you - LH's Business Class looks great and I can't wait for my next LHR-MUC-KUL flight later this year!!!)

Jerene

Then you won't be happy with SAS either, because they have reduced service, not "no service". As in selling you overpriced water bottles instead of giving it to you for free.

Jerene

JOUY31

Well, since mid-August, there is no food on BA in both Y (Euro Traveller) and C (Club Europe). Just tea and coffee. Flying LHR-IST, CDG-LHR. I am not amused by the vouchers I occasionnally get.

JOUY31

Oh yes, they do. And AF has raised its profit forecasts for the current year.

I have already flown AF for the first eight months as much as for the whole of last year and I am going to scale down my next BA flights due to their lack of catering for the last three weeks in Europe. FB is not a dream FFP, but being able to manage basic airline operations is more important than the FFP.

Internaut

I've only really stopped flying KLM for the long haul stuff (10 hours plus) where I find that BA offers a superior product in Y. As for KLMs scaled back European service, I can live with that and the sandwiches are much better than the ones served on LH's short haul flights. The only thing I miss is the small bottle of wine on Friday evening flights home. That sort of signs off the week for me.

As for the FB programme, it's still easier to earn miles without paying the earth than it is on LH or BA so I'll wait and see what happens when I finally try to redeem some of my hard earned miles.

Steve Fenton

I disagree, BA is almost always cheaper than KLM with better aircraft, service, crews and ground staff.

stimpy

Ah, but how many miles do you earn on those BA fares? That's why I fly AF or sometimes LH. I usually book "middle fares". Not the cheapest, nor the most expensive. With AF and LH I get the full miles or genearlly 200% thanks to elite status. On BA I'd get maybe 25%.

If you can afford BA's C class product, it's great. If not, forget it.

frankvb

One reason I joined Finnair i.s.o. BA is that with AY you'll get 50% miles on the BA flights that would get you 25% with BA... Other reason is considering the tier rules in the BA program (no tier points on cheap tickets) I wouldn't have a chance of becoming silver there. At least AY is miles (well, actually km) based.

BTW: this only works when flying on AY as well - flying to (via) Finland needs to be in your travel pattern.