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FB accrual inconsistencies (weekends in Europe with AF)

FB accrual inconsistencies (weekends in Europe with AF)

Old Jul 1, 2005, 5:43 pm
  #1  
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FB accrual inconsistencies (weekends in Europe with AF)

R/T CDG-AMS, 20 August - 21 August.

Booking code E (Europe30): 157 EUR all in, will get 1,500 miles.
Booking code N (NWKEND): 157 EUR all in, will get 375 miles.

Am I missing something?
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Old Jul 1, 2005, 11:57 pm
  #2  
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Well, the availability in the fare buckets is not the same, nor is the advanced purchase obligation.
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Old Jul 2, 2005, 2:58 am
  #3  
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You're right... however, though the 2 tickets are non refundable, the 2nd one (N) is slightly less restricted since you can book it less than 24 hrs in advance. The 1st one (E) comes with the D-30 purchase deadline rule. My point was just that here more restrictions = more miles, which I find illogical.
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Old Jul 2, 2005, 3:51 am
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Originally Posted by Falco Peregrinus
My point was just that here more restrictions = more miles, which I find illogical.
It's totally logical from Their point of view.

They will reward you for buying more expensive tickets by giving you less restrictions and lots of extra miles. Meaning that less restrictions and more miles go hand-in-hand in the upper classes. ('z u s'd)

On the other end of the price scale they'll reward you for putting up with more restrictions.

The obvious goad is by giving you cheaper tickets. Everyone knows about that. It is also totally obvious that sooner or later they'll start to grade the number of miles by class also. Same goal as always - maximum restrictions on cattle class seats.

They won't goad you by generously giving you more points; instead they'll slash away points at very bottom of booking classes. Not exactly generous by nature, but then anyone knows better than to believe commercials.

Which has caused some outrage from former FDs in this forum. Needless to say.

Jerene
(- There is no such thing as a free lunch.)
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Old Jul 2, 2005, 3:55 am
  #5  
 
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Originally Posted by Falco Peregrinus
You're right... however, though the 2 tickets are non refundable, the 2nd one (N) is slightly less restricted since you can book it less than 24 hrs in advance. The 1st one (E) comes with the D-30 purchase deadline rule. My point was just that here more restrictions = more miles, which I find illogical.
I've always been perplexed by this accounting unit -- the "mile".

It seems to me that logic (from an airline perspective) would dictate that the number of points credited be proportional to the fare paid for the ticket, not the distance or a proxy for the distance. The French railways SNCF do that (although their program is abysmal for other reasons).

Under that scheme you would be credited equally for both fares, which would be right.
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Old Jul 2, 2005, 4:04 am
  #6  
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Originally Posted by Falco Peregrinus
You're right... however, though the 2 tickets are non refundable, the 2nd one (N) is slightly less restricted since you can book it less than 24 hrs in advance. The 1st one (E) comes with the D-30 purchase deadline rule. My point was just that here more restrictions = more miles, which I find illogical.
Yes and no. If the ticketing deadline was the other way around, the E class fare would be redundant, since you could always buy (subject to fare bucket availability) the N class fare, with more miles and less restrictions.
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Old Jul 2, 2005, 4:55 am
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Originally Posted by NickB
If the ticketing deadline was the other way around, the E class fare would be redundant.
To be honest, the primary target of E fares is "every day of the week" with a mandatory Saturday night, whereas the N fare is a pure weekend product. Now, it happens that E fares and N fares are in competition on weekends.

Being a regular user of these cheap WE trips, I am glad I have noticed this. I used to book in N (and get 2,000 miles! ^ ), I will now book earlier and get the E fares for the same price with 4X miles.
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Old Jul 3, 2005, 9:27 am
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Angry

Originally Posted by Falco Peregrinus
To be honest, the primary target of E fares is "every day of the week" with a mandatory Saturday night, whereas the N fare is a pure weekend product. Now, it happens that E fares and N fares are in competition on weekends.

Being a regular user of these cheap WE trips, I am glad I have noticed this. I used to book in N (and get 2,000 miles! ^ ), I will now book earlier and get the E fares for the same price with 4X miles.
What I cannot understand is how does one actually book a particular fare? I just got back from a LHR-CDG trip with AF and was shocked that only 184 miles were earned on my return flight in 'N' - although I flew back on a Mon night. The online booking system only allows you to choose flight times but not fare types.

Can anyone help?
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Old Jul 3, 2005, 9:31 am
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Originally Posted by Malaysian16
The online booking system only allows you to choose flight times but not fare types.

Can anyone help?
it's quite easy. since AF online booking is crap, use expedia or travelocity for online booking and check fare rules. it works good on expedia. or call AF and ask NO N fares

still waiting for AF to improve their own online booking feature. will be a long long wait...
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Old Jul 3, 2005, 1:54 pm
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Originally Posted by chrissxb
still waiting for AF to improve their own online booking feature. will be a long long wait...
While you wait you could also try the booking tool here:

http://www.klm.com/uk_en/index.jsp

I can't guarantee that it has every possible feature you might wish for - but it beats the AF booking tool hands down.

Jerene
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Old Jul 3, 2005, 2:14 pm
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Does it work?

I've just tried LHR-MIA in August. Absolutely zero seat outbound, every single day in August. It only shows the inbound flights (availability every day). The cherry on the cake: No CDG connection option.

Time to wake up, AF/KL IT guys!

Last edited by Falco Peregrinus; Jul 3, 2005 at 2:53 pm
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Old Jul 3, 2005, 3:35 pm
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Originally Posted by Falco Peregrinus
Does it work?

I've just tried LHR-MIA in August. Absolutely zero seat outbound, every single day in August. It only shows the inbound flights (availability every day). The cherry on the cake: No CDG connection option.

Time to wake up, AF/KL IT guys!
If you use the KLM site you must accept that their hub is AMS, and not CDG. Maybe there is a way to force the reservation system to give you CDG (why anyone would want to transit there instead of AMS is beyond me, but never mind) by using the Multiple Destination option. I haven't tried it.

August is one of those months. Or THE month. There is still time though.

I tried London - Miami (that means a choice of three airports in London instead of just Heathrow). Flights to be had 10 Aug - return 17 Aug, on the cheapest Economy class, from City.

The link Show Fare Conditions brought up this:

--
Fare Conditions


ADVANCE RES/TICKETING
FOR Q- TYPE FARES RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL SECTORS. WHEN RESERVATIONS ARE MADE AT LEAST 49 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED AT LEAST 42 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE. OR - RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL SECTORS. WHEN RESERVATIONS ARE MADE AT LEAST 10 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 7 DAYS AFTER RESERVATIONS ARE MADE. OR - RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL SECTORS. WHEN RESERVATIONS ARE MADE AT LEAST 4 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 3 DAYS AFTER RESERVATIONS ARE MADE. OR - RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL SECTORS. TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 2 DAYS AFTER RESERVATIONS ARE MADE.

MINIMUM STAY
FOR Q- TYPE FARES TRAVEL FROM INBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER DEPARTURE OF THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR OR - TRAVEL FROM INBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER THAN 7 DAYS AFTER DEPARTURE OF THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR.

MAXIMUM STAY
FOR Q- TYPE FARES RETURN TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 1 MONTH AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS
UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED ALL TRAVEL MUST BE COMPLETED BY MIDNIGHT ON 31MAR 07.

PENALTIES
FOR Q- TYPE FARES OUTBOUND - CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED. INBOUND - CHANGES CHARGE GBP 75.00 FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION. CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME TICKET IS NON-REFUNDABLE.

--

The ticket cost GBP 697.30 with all surcharges.

Full fare Economy tickets were available on a number of other dates.


Jerene
(I'd say it works. And fast too.)

--- Itinerary ---

Departure
From London - UK (City Airport) to Amsterdam (Schiphol)
Flight number KL 1554
Departure time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 07:40
Arrival time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 10:00
Class Economy (Lowest)
You will travel in KLM Economy Class.
Remarks One class of Service on board.
One piece of handluggage only. Normal allowances apply to checked-in baggage.
Operated by KLM Cityhopper

From Amsterdam (Schiphol) to Detroit (Wayne County Airport)
Flight number KL 6067
Departure time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 11:05
Arrival time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 13:40
Class Economy (Lowest)
Remarks Operated by Northwest Airlines

From Detroit (Wayne County Airport) to Miami
Flight number KL 6997
Departure time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 15:42
Arrival time Wed 10 Aug 2005, 18:34
Class Economy (Lowest)
Remarks Operated by Northwest Airlines



Return
From Miami to Detroit (Wayne County Airport)
Flight number KL 6994
Departure time Wed 17 Aug 2005, 13:27
Arrival time Wed 17 Aug 2005, 16:26
Class Economy (Lowest)
Remarks Operated by Northwest Airlines

From Detroit (Wayne County Airport) to Amsterdam (Schiphol)
Flight number KL 6068
Departure time Wed 17 Aug 2005, 17:25
Arrival time Thu 18 Aug 2005, 07:15
Class Economy (Lowest)
Remarks Operated by Northwest Airlines

From Amsterdam (Schiphol) to London - UK (City Airport)
Flight number KL 1555
Departure time Thu 18 Aug 2005, 08:25
Arrival time Thu 18 Aug 2005, 08:45
Class Economy (Lowest)
Remarks One class of Service on board.
One piece of handluggage only. Normal allowances apply to checked-in baggage.
Operated by KLM Cityhopper
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Old Jul 4, 2005, 4:31 am
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Originally Posted by albireo
I've always been perplexed by this accounting unit -- the "mile".

It seems to me that logic (from an airline perspective) would dictate that the number of points credited be proportional to the fare paid for the ticket, not the distance or a proxy for the distance. The French railways SNCF do that (although their program is abysmal for other reasons).

Under that scheme you would be credited equally for both fares, which would be right.
HiltonHHonors also do this. I guess it is more logical for hotels as you don't have "booking classes" and "fare buckets" the same way. In the end it is quite fair. Currently you get a lot more flying intercontinentally than intra-European, even if cheap "full-miles" fares are at the same price as moderate to expensive European fares.
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Old Jul 4, 2005, 4:54 am
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I understand that AirNZ do that too. I am not sure that I would welcome such a move, though, as you can bet that it would be a golden opportunity to introduce a massive devaluation in terms of earning.
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Old Jul 4, 2005, 10:32 am
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Originally Posted by albireo
I've always been perplexed by this accounting unit -- the "mile".

It seems to me that logic (from an airline perspective) would dictate that the number of points credited be proportional to the fare paid for the ticket, not the distance or a proxy for the distance. The French railways SNCF do that (although their program is abysmal for other reasons).

Under that scheme you would be credited equally for both fares, which would be right.
it depends on what we are looking for. If it is a discount programme, it would be normal to get points as much as one spends, like "buy for 10000 EUR of KL/AF plane tickets in one year, get 500 EUR voucher to spend on AF/KL". This would be more or less assimilated to a discount for customers bringing significant revenue.

On the other hand, for a loyalty programme, like the FFP currently are (or more exactly "were") the point is to make passengers stick to the same airline/alliance when they want to go somewhere. A passenger flying on cheap tickets only (like me) couldn't hope to get any status or nice rewards if miles are indexed on the price paid, and this passenger would therefore fly with an airline or another depending on other parameters such as booze onboard, timetable but definitly not depending on loyalty incentives, as prices are usually quite equivalent.
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