Canada - Europe OW 13,500 miles

Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:12 pm
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
I am certainly no legal expert but please enlighten me and provide a single example of someone challenging an airline for cancelling their mistake fare in court and winning. Can you tell me with a straight face of there being any real precedent to what you are saying? What I do know is that for Americans at least the law is now definitely on the side of the airlines for mistake fares, and as you say it's the law of the consumer's country that applies, no? And I am willing to bet that most of the people trying to redeem these tickets (and making a stink about this) are probably Americans.

You and I both know that you and everyone else who is complaining about the outcome most likely suffered practically no financial damages from this.
EU legislations are mostly not based on precedent law. And yes, there are a number of cases like that won in my jurisdiction, maybe not with airlines, but airlines are no exceptions - no different rules prescribed by law. Law applies the same to airlined as to other companies making business with consumers. American law is not good in terms of consumer protection and it does not apply here, so is irrelevant. What makes you say that most would be Americans? Last time I checked EU was a bit over 500 million US a bit over 300 million.

If I buy a new more expensive ticket this is automatically financial damages for me.
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Last edited by MitjaPod; Dec 18, 2023 at 1:29 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:24 pm
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
I am certainly no legal expert but please enlighten me and provide a single example of someone challenging an airline for cancelling their mistake fare in court and winning. Can you tell me with a straight face of there being any real precedent to what you are saying? What I do know is that for Americans at least the law is now definitely on the side of the airlines for mistake fares, and as you say it's the law of the consumer's country that applies, no? And I am willing to bet that most of the people trying to redeem these tickets (and making a stink about this) are probably Americans.

Though regardless, even if by some miracle this was actually successfully challenged in court, I still can't say I feel sorry for any of you. You and I both know that you and everyone else who is complaining about the outcome most likely suffered practically no financial damages from this. That's why regardless of whatever the laws are I think you are all acting quite entitled if you think you deserve having your bookings reinstated (and therefore a very cheap J seat). Maybe my perspective is different because I am new to this hobby and haven't had the fortune to fly in a premium cabin nearly as many times as you have, but I always try to be grateful for what I can get.


I keep seeing the dynamic pricing card being pulled, and I certainly do think it's a frustrating practice, this is a very poor justification for expecting AF to honor these fares. 1.5k, 5k, or even 13.5k is an absolutely insanely low price for J (or even Y for that matter) from NA to EU. In a time where inflation and devaluations are rampant and demand for travel is high, especially in premium cabins, I don't know how anyone could possibly believe that AF/KLM would consciously release seats at those prices. I am sure deep down most of us knew these were the result of a technical glitch and were trying to exploit that. That's another reason why I am not going to feel sorry for any of you and probably why AF doesn't either.

You are indeed too new to the hobby.

There have been a number of court cases regarding special fares that were won both in Europe and Canada with a variety of airlines.

This one is different though as it pertains to miles and not cash.

Flying Blue's website labeled the awards as "promo awards", it's difficult to say what is too low. 1500 probably. 13500, probably not. AF/KL have the latitude to price their fares how they want.

FB should also have the necessary checks and IT infrastructure to prevent (what they describe as) erroneous fares from being ticketed. The fact that they don't is their doing not the consumer's responsibility.

Before i heard of the 1.5k fares (after I booked mine at 13.5k) I thought this might be a genius PR campaign to bolster FB in the community.

Considering that this was only priced to/from Canadian airports and the number of Canadians working at AFKL, I could hypothesise that this was possibly more of an insider job (negligence) than an error and that it was supposed to be kept a secret for friends/family.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:30 pm
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by MitjaPod
EU legislations are mostly not based on precedent law. And yes, there are a number of cases like that won in my jurisdiction, maybe not with airlines, but airlines are no exceptions - no different rules prescribed by law. Law applies the same to airlined as to other companies making business with consumers.
When I say "precedent", I mean demonstrating that you have real examples of people challenging the airlines in these cases and winning. It's one thing to start desperately citing portions of the law without full context and thinking that somehow you easily have an open-and-shut case, it's another to actually go through all the trouble to take it all the way to court and walking away victorious, and you and I both know that in the real world things rarely work out so conveniently. That's why until this happens, I and probably the customer relations team will think you are doing little more than blowing hot air and making empty threats.

American law is not good in terms of consumer protection and it does not apply here, so is irrelevant. What makes you say that most would be Americans? Last time I checked EU was a bit over 500 million US a bit over 300 million.
Americans have greater access to airline miles through credit card rewards programs than any other nation on Earth. I'll admit I have no hard data to back this up but I honestly suspect that in practice at the very least a large plurality of the awards travelers here were using Chase or Amex points rather than miles they organically earned from flying AF/KLM.

If I buy a new more expensive ticket this is automatically financial damages for me.
That's ultimately your choice, but let's be honest. I am dead certain that most of the people booking these flights probably had no initial plans to go to Europe (and I am certain they are not paying cash fares in J) but sporadically chose to do so since this was at a price that was far too good for them to pass up. And in my experience getting a saver award, be it a mistake fare or not, almost always requires you to be sporadic or book very, very far in advance these days.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:36 pm
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
When I say "precedent", I mean demonstrating that you have real examples of people challenging the airlines in these cases and winning. It's one thing to start desperately citing portions of the law without full context and thinking that somehow you easily have an open-and-shut case, it's another to actually go through all the trouble to take it all the way to court and walking away victorious, and you and I both know that in the real world things rarely work out so conveniently. That's why until this happens, I and probably the customer relations team will think you are doing little more than blowing hot air and making empty threats.
Here's an example for you.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:38 pm
  #80  
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Originally Posted by GVA
This one is different though as it pertains to miles and not cash.

Flying Blue's website labeled the awards as "promo awards", it's difficult to say what is too low. 1500 probably. 13500, probably not. AF/KL have the latitude to price their fares how they want.
It's not though....the intended price is clearly shown on the website:

https://www.flyingblue.com/en/spend/...rds?country=CA
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:44 pm
  #81  
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
It's not though....the intended price is clearly shown on the website:

https://www.flyingblue.com/en/spend/...rds?country=CA
One doesn't navigate on that website when booking the fare though. Nor does FB point you towards it at anytime in the booking process.

I was referring to the booking screen which simply labeled everything as "promo awards" next to a regular price.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:53 pm
  #82  
 
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
When I say "precedent", I mean demonstrating that you have real examples of people challenging the airlines in these cases and winning. It's one thing to start desperately citing portions of the law without full context and thinking that somehow you easily have an open-and-shut case, it's another to actually go through all the trouble to take it all the way to court and walking away victorious, and you and I both know that in the real world things rarely work out so conveniently. That's why until this happens, I and probably the customer relations team will think you are doing little more than blowing hot air and making empty threats.
I can sense you dont have any idea of the applicable law. I told you there are cases. And I can tell you that Im practicing law for 20 year and I mean business. I call out wongdoing when I see it - and this is definitely it. The airlines have just came away too long. No empty threats from my side, what youd know from my above posts if youd understand them. Im ready to bring them to the court since it does not cost me anything. AF/KL will have to engage expensive lawyers abroad - but again lucky me: since the lawyer fees are tariffed in my country, AF/Kal will not be able to get back from me what they paid to their lawyers even if I lose the court case - only a very very small portion of costs can be retreived, plus also no of the internal translations their lawyers will prepare for them to understand the case. For me it is a win-loose almost nothing situation. And what is worse, I can request from the court to order AF/KL for the benefit of all consumers in my country to refrain from these practices. So at the end, instead of honoring my ticket (which would cost them less than 1000 EUR besides the 491 EUR fees already paid), they will have to pay something around 20.000 EUR just in legal fees, fully non-refundable except maybe 2000 EUR - my max exposure).

Originally Posted by Comrade C
That's ultimately your choice, but let's be honest. I am dead certain that most of the people booking these flights probably had no initial plans to go to Europe (and I am certain they are not paying cash fares in J) but sporadically chose to do so since this was at a price that was far too good for them to pass up. And in my experience getting a saver award, be it a mistake fare or not, almost always requires you to be sporadic or book very, very far in advance these days.
Does not matter. Since tickets got cancelled, pax can buy a different ticket and get it refunded from AF/KL. What was before is irrelevant under the law.

Last edited by MitjaPod; Dec 18, 2023 at 2:00 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:54 pm
  #83  
 
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
It's not though....the intended price is clearly shown on the website:

https://www.flyingblue.com/en/spend/...rds?country=CA
I was never shown this website. I went directly to the booking with flyingblue miles tool.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:55 pm
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Knock your selv out with legal action, I'm just happy that for once FB elites are prioritised over US CC transfers for cheap miles inventory.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:57 pm
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Originally Posted by GVA
One doesn't navigate on that website when booking the fare though. Nor does FB point you towards it at anytime in the booking process.

I was referring to the booking screen which simply labeled everything as "promo awards" next to a regular price.
Are you still trying to argue that it was reasonable for people to believe that AF/KLM intentionally set these fares? Give me a break. Everyone here including me is savvy enough to know that in a time where devaluations are common and cash demand for premium tickets at all time highs, even 13.5k is simply a ludicrously low price that cannot be anything other than a mistake that you all tried to take advantage of. It's another matter to be aware of the odds of such a redemption being honored.

The only other time I have ever seen long-haul business class being offered at a comparable fare is flying from the CONUS to Hawaii on UA for 12.5k TK miles. And even that only exists because of a loop-hole in TK's award chart, but they probably won't bother closing it anytime soon if ever given that saver availability with UA on that route is extremely rare to begin with. But for something like this where probably hundreds of people get to easily ride the gravy train? The outcome is not surprising or unreasonable.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:59 pm
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
Are you still trying to argue that it was reasonable for people to believe that AF/KLM intentionally set these fares? Give me a break. Everyone here including me is savvy enough to know that in a time where devaluations are common and cash demand for premium tickets at all time highs, even13.5k is simply a ludicrously low price that cannot be anything other than a mistake that you all tried to take advantage of. It's another matter to be aware of the odds of such a redemption being honored.

The only other time I have ever seen long-haul business class being offered at a comparable fare is flying from the CONUS to Hawaii on UA for 12.5k TK miles. And even that only exists because of a loop-hole in TK's award chart, but they probably won't bother closing it anytime soon if ever given that saver availability with UA on that route is extremely rare to begin with. But for something like this where probably hundreds of people get to easily ride the gravy train? The outcome is not surprising or unreasonable.
Dear Comrade C,

You are a brand new member on Flyertalk, all your posts are limited to this thread and each response is to argue with posters who are less appreciative of Ben's reply.

Are you representing Flying Blue?
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 2:01 pm
  #87  
 
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Originally Posted by GVA
Dear Comrade C,
Are you representing Flying Blue?
I would say: all signs point to yes. This is a classical PR gig that tries to shift the public opinion. And there are others who like his and Ben’s posts.l, but are maybe with FT for a bit longer time, but for work purposes.

Last edited by MitjaPod; Dec 18, 2023 at 3:16 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 2:09 pm
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Stil
Knock your selv out with legal action, I'm just happy that for once FB elites are prioritised over US CC transfers for cheap miles inventory.
Unfortunately, this is a different animal than cash bookings.

We've known some airlines to delete/suspend/end FFP membership for people who disputed transactions on paid fares.

Unless you've pretty much never used Flying Blue, have no status and/or have no miles, there's a risk in engaging in legal action as you might end up without a Flying Blue account.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 2:16 pm
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
It seems pretty obvious that this is a commercial gesture - and quite a generous one at that - and a case of sour grapes (you led with the "I'm Silver" declaration).

And no, I have no skin in the game, but it's a very nice gesture for those who benefit from it.

👍
I absolutely agree and I am investes in it, even though very cheap
It's a very nice gesture from FB!
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 2:19 pm
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Did you see that : https://wwws.airfrance.us/informatio...o-cg-airfrance ?
look at article 4.5
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