Canada - Europe OW 13,500 miles

Old Dec 18, 2023, 11:58 am
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey
This was an error fare; the true price should have been 37.5k miles which matches what is published for this month's promo rewards and can be found on FB.com.
Considering that Flying Blue prices each itinerary differently/dynamically, I'm currently seeing 55k,110k, 770k for the itinerary I booked, but not 37.5k for any date through end of schedule.

So even though you say it is published there's nothing available, which seems to point towards false advertisement and deceptive practices.

How is a consumer supposed to know that 37.5k is the right amount of miles, especially if it is not bookable ? How should one know that 13.5k miles is less crazy or invalid than say 770k.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 11:59 am
  #62  
 
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
It seems pretty obvious that this is a commercial gesture - and quite a generous one at that - and a case of sour grapes (you led with the "I'm Silver" declaration).

And no, I have no skin in the game, but it's a very nice gesture for those who benefit from it.

👍
You misrepresented my post. The part you quoted does not speak about honoring the offer for Gold, Platinum and Ultimate (who already have enough benefits and miles compared to others). The quoted part referrs to the unlawful act of unilaterally canceling the tickets in general. This is not complient with the Directive EC I cited above at least, but also with other laws.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:11 pm
  #63  
 
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Originally Posted by Comrade C
But for anyone else who is sticking around with the audacity to complain or even threatening legal action? Don't be ridiculous.
The only one being ridiculous here is you. It seems that you are living in some kind of a bubble outside of the laws that rule the world. It is because of these laws that we have a legal order that also companies need to obey. And the basic rule is: the one who invites you to take an offer or make an offer based on this invitation with specified price should respect it and fulfill its part of the deal. What happened here was that people paid the asked price, and they got ticketed. This alone means that was already a contract in place. This contract needed to be fulfilled by both parties, also the airline. There is no such thing as unilaterally leaving the contract. Especially not when the other party is a consumer. In this cases, the law is extremely strict. Any right of the company to unilaterally terminate the contract or leave the obligations from the contract is considered null and void under the applicable law in this case. I cited one of the laws that apply across the EU, but there are local laws to enforce it and the local law of the consumer’s country applies here. So here, a free lecture of basic consumer protection in the EU for you.
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Last edited by MitjaPod; Dec 18, 2023 at 12:17 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:13 pm
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Comrade C

But for anyone else who is sticking around with the audacity to complain or even threatening legal action? Don't be ridiculous. The only real loss most of you suffered is some Chase/Amex points that are now stuck in your FB account, and while I certainly think it would be a nice gesture if FB could arrange a way to at least return your points to you (it's actually not impossible despite what others might say), expecting them to just give you a business class ticket is just nuts and reflects very poorly on this hobby if you ask me.
I think you are missing the point ; FB is escaping from its obligation to honor the ticket by claiming the fare was incorrect / mistake & thereby a valid contract is not established between the pax and the ticketing agency / airline. This argument alone is a stretch for 13500-17K fares as proportionate discount is in proportion to increased pricing (700k+ compared to regular inventory pricing).

Also when they say they will honor the tickets for FB gold / plat etc - they are negating above reasoning.

An entity cannot argue that a contract is “mistake” for certain parties, and the same contract is valid for another subsection.

Either it’s mistake fare for everyone and thereby contract is null and void OR it’s honored for the entire class (everyone who booked tickets). Can’t just pick and choose after contract is established.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:13 pm
  #65  
 
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Treating classes of customers differently when attempting to void a contract for unilateral mistake is risky business!!
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Last edited by durberville; Dec 18, 2023 at 12:22 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:23 pm
  #66  
 
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Originally Posted by jugaadkabaap
I think you are missing the point ; FB is escaping from its obligation to honor the ticket by claiming the fare was incorrect / mistake & thereby a valid contract is not established between the pax and the ticketing agency / airline. This argument alone is a stretch for 13500-17K fares as proportionate discount is in proportion to increased pricing (700k+ compared to regular inventory pricing).

Also when they say they will honor the tickets for FB gold / plat etc - they are negating above reasoning.

An entity cannot argue that a contract is “mistake” for certain parties, and the same contract is valid for another subsection.

Either it’s mistake fare for everyone and thereby contract is null and void OR it’s honored for the entire class (everyone who booked tickets). Can’t just pick and choose after contract is established.
Even if it is a mistake: they cannot say the contract was not co cluded. It was their statement from the sustem u der their control, which they acquired and tested and use as one of their main business channels. If there was a mistake, they should call the insurance company of those they engaged to design and build their system (or them directly). The law here is not on the AF/KL side. The risk AF/KLM took with putting system like this in the production of their sales, is only its concern. Nothing the consumer needs to understand here. Their invitation to make an offer was clear and AF/KL also took the money. It seems they didn’t apply any double checks or safty nets, but again, this is nothing that is of the interest of the consumer.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:27 pm
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I happen to be on FT and follow the thread, but posting a message here on Monday for a free booked Friday, with no communication to my registered email or phone is pretty bad. And yes Air France should offer me 50 EUR, which is what I would have paid if I woke up Monday and felt like cancelling.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:31 pm
  #68  
 
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Too bad first timer here with AF/KLM FB and got this damn your system must be in pretty bad shape because the fun part here is that can't even see the 37.5K tickets from YYZ to Europe so what exactly are you referring to?? where are these 37.5K deals from YYZ?? work on your true prices as you mentioned as your system seems to broken and there is clearly a discrimination in your system. Good luck and congrats for bad reputation!
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:31 pm
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Originally Posted by BA_Jfan
I happen to be on FT and follow the thread, but posting a message here on Monday for a free booked Friday, with no communication to my registered email or phone is pretty bad. And yes Air France should offer me 50 EUR, which is what I would have paid if I woke up Monday and felt like cancelling.
There is no grounds for a 50 EUR voucher/payment in the law. And AF/KL regularly offer €50 or €60 vouchers that you can find online. So this is not a big deal for AF/KL. AF/KL should do what the law prescribes, namely, honor the contract.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:34 pm
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Originally Posted by BilalAhsan
can't even see the 37.5K tickets from YYZ to Europe so what exactly are you referring to?? where are these 37.5K deals from YYZ??
I think it will be an exception on a call-in to FB basis. But what about those who do not have the amount of miles now asked but had the previously asked amount of miles?
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:37 pm
  #71  
 
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reply

Originally Posted by MitjaPod
There is no grounds for a 50 EUR voucher/payment in the law. And AF/KL regularly offer €50 or €60 vouchers that you can find online. So this is not a big deal for AF/KL. AF/KL should do what the law prescribes, namely, honor the contract.
Yes, they should indeed honor the contract. But if they dont, 50 EUR is the bare minimum.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by MitjaPod
Even if it is a mistake: they cannot say the contract was not co cluded. It was their statement from the sustem u der their control, which they acquired and tested and use as one of their main business channels. If there was a mistake, they should call the insurance company of those they engaged to design and build their system (or them directly). The law here is not on the AF/KL side. The risk AF/KLM took with putting system like this in the production of their sales, is only its concern. Nothing the consumer needs to understand here. Their invitation to make an offer was clear and AF/KL also took the money. It seems they didn’t apply any double checks or safty nets, but again, this is nothing that is of the interest of the consumer.
Keep seething, these were clear mistake fares that AF/KLM have the right to cancel.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:46 pm
  #73  
 
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Originally Posted by GVA
Whilst I appreciate Ben's message and presence in the forum here (and in the past on Aeroplan), this leaves a very bad taste.

I'm a FB member since 20+ years and was in the past a FB Platinum member. It seems that recognition is only for the current members not longstanding.

I was seriously considering moving business to AF/KL next year after testing the product on this run, as a thank you for the fare (which wasn't free either).

I do wonder why FB believes that they are free to cancel tickets 3 days after issuance with no penalties when they would have made me pay. Surely at least we should obtain 50 euros as compensation for the cancellation, if you want to be totally fair. Otherwise it seems the conditions aren't equitable.

The end result is that I'll be cancelling my FB credit cards and avoiding SkyTeam like the plague.

In the meantime, as many were booked ex-YUL, Québec has very strong consumer protection laws, I suggest people consider taking legal action there.
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 12:56 pm
  #74  
 
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Originally Posted by MitjaPod
The only one being ridiculous here is you. It seems that you are living in some kind of a bubble outside of the laws that rule the world. It is because of these laws that we have a legal order that also companies need to obey. And the basic rule is: the one who invites you to take an offer or make an offer based on this invitation with specified price should respect it and fulfill its part of the deal. What happened here was that people paid the asked price, and they got ticketed. This alone means that was already a contract in place. This contract needed to be fulfilled by both parties, also the airline. There is no such thing as unilaterally leaving the contract. Especially not when the other party is a consumer. In this cases, the law is extremely strict. Any right of the company to unilaterally terminate the contract or leave the obligations from the contract is considered null and void under the applicable law in this case. I cited one of the laws that apply across the EU, but there are local laws to enforce it and the local law of the consumer’s country applies here. So here, a free lecture of basic consumer protection in the EU for you.
I am certainly no legal expert but please enlighten me and provide a single example of someone challenging an airline for cancelling their mistake fare in court and winning. Can you tell me with a straight face of there being any real precedent to what you are saying? What I do know is that for Americans at least the law is now definitely on the side of the airlines for mistake fares, and as you say it's the law of the consumer's country that applies, no? And I am willing to bet that most of the people trying to redeem these tickets (and making a stink about this) are probably Americans.

Though regardless, even if by some miracle this was actually successfully challenged in court, I still can't say I feel sorry for any of you. You and I both know that you and everyone else who is complaining about the outcome most likely suffered practically no financial damages from this. That's why regardless of whatever the laws are I think you are all acting quite entitled if you think you deserve having your bookings reinstated (and therefore a very cheap J seat). Maybe my perspective is different because I am new to this hobby and haven't had the fortune to fly in a premium cabin nearly as many times as you have, but I always try to be grateful for what I can get.

Originally Posted by jugaadkabaap
I think you are missing the point ; FB is escaping from its obligation to honor the ticket by claiming the fare was incorrect / mistake & thereby a valid contract is not established between the pax and the ticketing agency / airline. This argument alone is a stretch for 13500-17K fares as proportionate discount is in proportion to increased pricing (700k+ compared to regular inventory pricing).

Also when they say they will honor the tickets for FB gold / plat etc - they are negating above reasoning.

An entity cannot argue that a contract is “mistake” for certain parties, and the same contract is valid for another subsection.

Either it’s mistake fare for everyone and thereby contract is null and void OR it’s honored for the entire class (everyone who booked tickets). Can’t just pick and choose after contract is established.
I keep seeing the dynamic pricing card being pulled, and I certainly do think it's a frustrating practice, this is a very poor justification for expecting AF to honor these fares. 1.5k, 5k, or even 13.5k is an absolutely insanely low price for J (or even Y for that matter) from NA to EU. In a time where inflation and devaluations are rampant and demand for travel is high, especially in premium cabins, I don't know how anyone could possibly believe that AF/KLM would consciously release seats at those prices. I am sure deep down most of us knew these were the result of a technical glitch and were trying to exploit that. That's another reason why I am not going to feel sorry for any of you and probably why AF doesn't either.

Last edited by Comrade C; Dec 18, 2023 at 1:14 pm
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Old Dec 18, 2023, 1:02 pm
  #75  
 
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Originally Posted by RK23
Keep seething, these were clear mistake fares that AF/KLM have the right to cancel.
And AF/KL’s right is based on which law? The other contracting party does not have the obligation to accept a termination like this. Not according to law which applies for me (machine translation):
———
A party in error may seek withdrawal from a contract if the error is fundamental, unless it has not exercised the required due diligence.
If the contract is terminated as a result of the error, the other honest party shall be entitled to claim damages for the loss suffered as a result, notwithstanding that the party who was in error was not at fault
———
Since the system is the domain of AF/KL it was hardly due diligent to apply such a faulty system. Plus, in my country AF/KL would need to go to the court to withdraw from the contract or obtain my consent - so strong is the pacta sunt servanda. There is no unilateral withdrawal allowed, period. Especially for contracts with consumers.

And even if the withdrawal from the contract is allowed by the court or the consent of the other party is given, the other party has the right to be compensated for damages.
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Last edited by MitjaPod; Dec 18, 2023 at 1:15 pm
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