edealinfo12345

On inter European flights, are Air France, KLM and British Airways the only large carriers that market economy class seat as "business class" by blocking the middle row seat? Essentially this so-called business class has the same seat as economy with a little more leg room. Why would anyone pay extra for such a fake business class? Why do Europeans put up with it? Heck, you might as well travel economy class.

What about Lufthansa, TAP, Iberia, etc.? Do they do the same?

SEA-Flyer

Every European airline I’ve ever been on does this - British, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Scandinavian, KLM, Alitalia, Aer Lingus, Aegean, etc, etc.. I’ve heard that Aeroflot and Turkish don’t do it, but don’t have first hand experience.

as for why, it is a different market, with different expectations. The seats are generally much worse in Europe up front for those short haul flights. But the service is usually much better than comparable length flights in the US. Meals, Drinks, and lounge access will be included on a short 1 hour flight that in the US would be lucky to have a drink service.

carnarvon

As SEA-flyer says, for Meals, Drinks and lounge access, but I would add priority boarding, extra luggage space in the racks and very importantly, the guarantee that you will NOT be seated in the middle seat.

You can add peace and calm in the cabin, somehow attentive crew (quite helpful among other things in case of irrop), being first to disembark and you have a "package" which means that the experience is definitely not the same as in the Y cabin for a standard PAX.

Of course, if you are Elite plus in Skyteam, you already have lounge access and priority boarding plus a reasonable chance of getting either an aisle or a widow seat.

In this case the difference is less marked with business and given the fare difference, it is not an obvious choice to make.

LondonElite

Yes, this is business class in Europe. This topic comes up all the time as a search will show you. It’s really not a big deal to put up with it. Why do Americans put up with not having lounge access on a domestic F flight?

mlin32

I've always wondered the same thing when flying in the US.....domestic J yet no lounge access ? Then is it just for lounge membership holders ?

flyerCO

We get free upgrades to F. We also get a "real" business class seat.

HGPilot

If I had to choose I'd choose European business class every day. Maybe it's because I'm average height and size so the extra legroom and width isn't that big of a deal. Plus the seat is not all bad, you don't have someone right next to you.

Getting lounge access and a meal on the flight is worth far more to me when traveling for business and I don't have time to go to a restaurant or dinner time is when I'm on the plane.

It's really weird to me that US domestic F doesn't provide lounge access or a guarantee of a meal on board.

RetiredATLATC

I agree it's not that big of a deal on a short flight, however I took an LH MUC-TBS in J and for a 4 hour flight the seats became quite uncomfortable. TK or QR are the way to go if you want a true business class in my opinion.

carnarvon

You certainly do not get free upgrades 100% of the time, do you?

Regarding the "real seat", remember that most European flights are very short. The time spent on this seat is therefore very short, often shorter than in the lounge.

Another factor is the flexibility. You never run out of business class seats with the European system, since the airline only needs to move the dividing curtain to enlarge the cabin.

So in all, isn't it better to have good food plus all other mentioned perks with an average seat rather a better seat for an hour or so, without good food (if any) or lounge access?

P.s. yes, on longer flights, rarer in Europe, it is another debate.

TPJ

1. Feeders to long haul J (cash cow for Eutopean airlines)
2. Corporate contracts (certain carrier position = C-class travel)
3. Flexibility (some Corpos prefer to buy fully flex ticket rather than then pay for each change)
4. Cheap upgrades (especially on BA or LX, but not only)
5. Growing 'luxury' leisure market (dirty cheap P fares on LH to PMO or SKG - sometimes available only through NDC channel)

edealinfo12345

I think this hurts your argument rather than supporting it! What you are saying, is that economy class can be simply rebranded and enlarged as business class by blocking the middle seat and moving the curtain. That's hardly the exclusivity of business class! As for those who say lounge access and on board make the deal, well most premium credit cards offer free lounge access and lounges just provide snacks - no big deal, and the business class meal costs for European costs the airline no more than $25. You might as well pick a meal at the airport, rather than pay so much more for business class.

CyBeR

It's not entirely true. The business class section has a fixed maximum size, but if few seats are sold it can be sized down to increase the amount of economy class seats available instead (which due to the extra leg room are then sold as comfort seats). The ability to do that is, in fact, the primary reason for even having this style of business class.

It's also not just about the seat -- J comes with better service, more checked bags, priority check-in/boarding (even before priority based on elite status) and lounge access in all cases. If those things are of importance to you, get the business class ticket. If not, get an economy ticket. For me it's usually not worth the added cost so I fly Y inside Europe.

edealinfo12345

what is NDC?

mfkne

Why is domestic first class in the US only equipped with business class seats? Why do Americans put up with this?

EuropeanPete

I do always enjoy these "why is the rest of the world different to how we do it in the US" threads.

We'll move into how overseas they don't have proper English muffins or Italian sausage next.