Economy seat sold as "business class" by blocking middle row seat
Mar 9, 2022, 8:54 am
#61
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Do you mean the convertible seats? Those that had collapsible armrests and were spaces a few ratchet holes further apart than in the back? Or do you mean big armchairs? If you mean the latter, I'd love to see some vintage LH/BA/AF photos of these.
Mar 9, 2022, 9:20 am
#62
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The comments on this thread have been very interesting. But let me go back to my original point: when you paid for business class, you got a wider seat with more legroom, even in Europe. European airlines have moved away from that standard, and not too long ago either; the rest of the world, by and large, has not. When the OP expressed his surprise at the hard-product standards of European business class (a perfectly natural reaction, it seems to me, for someone unfamiliar with these standards), the thread quickly turned into a US-bashing forum (right down to public toilet facilities!) for some unfathomable reason which I can only attribute to prejudice. Yet, amusingly enough, these same people were quick to take offense and turn defensive at my characterisation of the European hard-product standard as "euro trash".
Please. I am an American, who lived for several years in both Asia and Europe. I pointed out that things worked differently in different places - cultural expectations around products and services vary in different markets. Anyone who does business internationally either knows that or will quickly learn.
And that people who encounter things that are different are often taken off guard. Americans arriving in Europe find things that they don’t like. And Europeans arriving in America find things they don’t like. I was the one that brought up the toilets, as an example to illustrate the point around these differences in preferences and expectations (for what it’s worth, I find American toilets fine, but know a ton of people from elsewhere that are bothered by them). From an outsiders perspective, those things may often be perceived as inferior. But to a local perspective, they may find different value in them, because their norms and expectations differ - things one culture values, another might less so and vice versa.But calling something trash, prefixing it with a reference to their culture/geography/country is crossing another bridge entirely and is offensive.
Think of all the possible components that can go into a premium short-haul air travel product. And then think about which ones your target market will value, is willing to pay for and that you can profitably offer. European carriers and American carriers have both done this exercise - and they’ve reached different answers as to which are essential to offer and which are not. They know their markets and their customers. And their markets and customers are different.
Mar 10, 2022, 7:45 am
#63
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I fondly remember this summer on a CDG-ATH an American couple boarding our AF flight after (what I assume was) their redeye from somewhere in the US, and trying to leave the plane, arguing that since there was no business class seats, that couldn't possibly be their plane and that they must have boarded the wrong flight. 
Mar 10, 2022, 2:46 pm
#64
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Johan
Mar 10, 2022, 3:01 pm
#65
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They sure are.
Here's the thing about the various J class concepts: the seat is a given. I have to sit in it. I do not have to eat the food offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not have to drink the beverages offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not necessarily need to visit a lounge, or may not have even have time to. But I do have to sit in that seat.
For me, the seat is the clincher. In European J, with almost no exceptions, the seats suck. With each new generation they suck even more. It's all about reducing weight and saving space these days, "enhancements" glazed with green frosting these days.
When traveling to longhaul destinations I cannot reach directly, I try to avoid transfers at European hubs and instead when possible opt for EK, QR or TK. At least I get decent seats on all flights.
Johan
Here's the thing about the various J class concepts: the seat is a given. I have to sit in it. I do not have to eat the food offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not have to drink the beverages offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not necessarily need to visit a lounge, or may not have even have time to. But I do have to sit in that seat.
For me, the seat is the clincher. In European J, with almost no exceptions, the seats suck. With each new generation they suck even more. It's all about reducing weight and saving space these days, "enhancements" glazed with green frosting these days.
When traveling to longhaul destinations I cannot reach directly, I try to avoid transfers at European hubs and instead when possible opt for EK, QR or TK. At least I get decent seats on all flights.
Johan
Mar 10, 2022, 3:08 pm
#66
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Johan
Mar 10, 2022, 7:14 pm
#67
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Here's the thing about the various J class concepts: the seat is a given. I have to sit in it. I do not have to eat the food offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not have to drink the beverages offered, if any. Should I wish, I can bring my own. But I do have to sit in that seat. I do not necessarily need to visit a lounge, or may not have even have time to. But I do have to sit in that seat.
Johan
Johan
Mar 10, 2022, 7:15 pm
#68
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Mar 12, 2022, 12:35 pm
#70
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Mar 12, 2022, 1:49 pm
#71
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Mar 12, 2022, 2:32 pm
#72
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There used to be a commercial where a guy was sitting in economy but his ticket showed business class. He showed the flight attendant and the flight attendant just rudely moved the curtain that separates cabins from in front of him to behind him, dragging it across him as she moved it (...)
Mar 12, 2022, 3:01 pm
#73
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You can watch it here : Air liberté : Le rideau - Culture Pub
Mar 13, 2022, 12:19 am
#74
Join Date: Nov 2021
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Finally, yes, enforcement. Just like the same companies that cater your airline meals in the US serve millions of meals a day in prisons, schools, universities, and hospitals, the same goes for how toilet stalls get built. First, stalls are optional. Second, the lack of privacy should deter unsanctioned behavior (smoking cigarettes, drug deals, and so on). Third, the enforcers -- guards, school principals, etc. -- need to find people who often hide in bathrooms.
As for morality, well, these aren't Dutch townhouses, advertising their Calvinist virtues to the neighborhood. Plenty of Americans get up to all kinds of things in those stalls. Presumably, Senator Larry Craig used that infamous men's room in the MSP concourse because he found the WorldClub stalls too restricting.
So, I'd say they're looking for more legal transparency and enforcement than morality. But maybe it's too fine a point.
That said, nothing "beats" MUC, which used to have a Beater Uhse adult store in the non-Schengen *A terminal, and second entrance from the men's room.
Mar 14, 2022, 9:31 am
#75
Join Date: Jul 2015
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Ease of cleaning. You can put a single drain in the room and run a mop without having to scrub the walls as often. Also the American design involves using an ample amount of water in the bowl to reduce the odor. This also seems to lead to more clog/overflow conditions, and again, you're going to want to hose the floor down.
Finally, yes, enforcement. Just like the same companies that cater your airline meals in the US serve millions of meals a day in prisons, schools, universities, and hospitals, the same goes for how toilet stalls get built. First, stalls are optional. Second, the lack of privacy should deter unsanctioned behavior (smoking cigarettes, drug deals, and so on). Third, the enforcers -- guards, school principals, etc. -- need to find people who often hide in bathrooms.
Finally, yes, enforcement. Just like the same companies that cater your airline meals in the US serve millions of meals a day in prisons, schools, universities, and hospitals, the same goes for how toilet stalls get built. First, stalls are optional. Second, the lack of privacy should deter unsanctioned behavior (smoking cigarettes, drug deals, and so on). Third, the enforcers -- guards, school principals, etc. -- need to find people who often hide in bathrooms.
