Ben Smith's expectations for ramping up operations

Old Apr 28, 2020, 3:13 am
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Originally Posted by brunos
Repeating a fake news does not make it true.
I'm really curious as to why you would call it fake news, since it comes from a reliable source (Reuters) and you provided this link yourself...
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Old Apr 28, 2020, 4:44 am
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Originally Posted by glennhaak
I'm really curious as to why you would call it fake news, since it comes from a reliable source (Reuters) and you provided this link yourself...
All that Reuters was saying is that there was an outcry in Dutch social media. Actually you joined that outcry by affirming in an earlier post and without any proof :

"Well there was, as a bonus was tied to how Ben would lead AF-KL through the crisis with a direct link to the financial position of AF-KL and how much financial support he would be able to get from the French and Dutch governments, meaning that the more financial support he would be able to get, the higher his bonus would be."

This is the typical process of fake news Just repeating a fake news does not make it true.
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Old Apr 28, 2020, 6:23 am
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Originally Posted by brunos
All that Reuters was saying is that there was an outcry in Dutch social media. Actually you joined that outcry by affirming in an earlier post and without any proof :

"Well there was, as a bonus was tied to how Ben would lead AF-KL through the crisis with a direct link to the financial position of AF-KL and how much financial support he would be able to get from the French and Dutch governments, meaning that the more financial support he would be able to get, the higher his bonus would be."

This is the typical process of fake news Just repeating a fake news does not make it true.
If you read the enitre Reuters article you would know that that is not the only thing they are saying about the bonus conditions:"But proposals issued to shareholders last week showed that criteria for Smith’s variable pay had been altered to exclude debt reduction, while introducing new conditions including cash conservation and the “obtaining of support and financing”."

While this does not explicetly mentions state aid, it is implied. It is very unlikely that any airline can attract support or funding from other sources than the government. Since these documents are available to the general public I would imagine that these conditions are accurately represented by Reuters.
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Old Apr 28, 2020, 4:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Rambol
If you read the enitre Reuters article you would know that that is not the only thing they are saying about the bonus conditions:"But proposals issued to shareholders last week showed that criteria for Smith’s variable pay had been altered to exclude debt reduction, while introducing new conditions including cash conservation and the “obtaining of support and financing”."

While this does not explicetly mentions state aid, it is implied. It is very unlikely that any airline can attract support or funding from other sources than the government. Since these documents are available to the general public I would imagine that these conditions are accurately represented by Reuters.
And calling it fake news twice doesn't automatically make it fake, I guess? This Reuters article is quite difficult to misinterpret actually. So I guess, either Reuters writers lied or Dutch government (major shareholder that must have access to such information more than anyone else, mind you) lied, or it's actually not as fake as one might think?
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Old Apr 28, 2020, 4:55 pm
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
Are "Economy Comfort" and "Extra Legroom Seats" a threat?

Afterall, they redefined personal space on board...
Haha, yes, absolutely. Chances they will redefine it like here:
GLASSAFE - Aviointeriors
Let's forget of course that most passengers are not as slim and miniature as people in those renderings, nor they are that happy to sit in a tight tube with strangers for hours. I guess it might be the end of 'poor man's business class', the only hope being that it will actually take some time to certify such solution for safety. And maybe, just maybe, with all the spare aircrafts available there will be no reason to keep the sits THAT tight, so hopefully extra legroom seats will make their return to where they disappeared from like 10 years ago (one can always hope, right?)
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 1:44 am
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Originally Posted by maxvor
I guess it might be the end of 'poor man's business class'
If anything, I think it will be the era of what you call "poor man's business class".

At least the free middle seat will likely be a feature of flying, throughout the entire cabin, for some time to come.

And prices will inevitably rise.
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 1:52 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
If anything, I think it will be the era of what you call "poor man's business class".

At least the free middle seat will likely be a feature of flying, throughout the entire cabin, for some time to come.

And prices will inevitably rise.
With poor man's business class i don't only mean having a seat next to you empty, but the ability to lift the arm support and lie down, or at least get into more comfy pose stretching over two seats. With most of new seats designs that are not flat it was quite difficult already, but with any additional artifacts likely designed to 'protect your private space' that will be a thing of the past all together.
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by maxvor
With poor man's business class i don't only mean having a seat next to you empty, but the ability to lift the arm support and lie down, or at least get into more comfy pose stretching over two seats. With most of new seats designs that are not flat it was quite difficult already, but with any additional artifacts likely designed to 'protect your private space' that will be a thing of the past all together.
Which airlines have the money to do any seat retrofitting?
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 1:15 pm
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Originally Posted by stimpy
Which airlines have the money to do any seat retrofitting?
Installing a plastic shield around existing seat is not exactly retrofitting. Also, I would expect that 11bln government help would be enough to accommodate the costs of returning to flying (if protective measures are one of the conditions). Gosh, I would argue 11bln should be enough to start a completely new airline for that matter.
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 2:27 pm
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Originally Posted by maxvor
Installing a plastic shield around existing seat is not exactly retrofitting. Also, I would expect that 11bln government help would be enough to accommodate the costs of returning to flying (if protective measures are one of the conditions). Gosh, I would argue 11bln should be enough to start a completely new airline for that matter.
They can't just install plexiglass between seats like they have done in stores and call it a day. Anything that is added to the cabin needs to go through a certification process. They need to be sure everything stays in place during severe turbulence and doesn't cause unneccessary problems in the event of a crash. I may be off a little, but I believe seats are certified up to a 7G load so anything that is added would need to stay in place in similar conditions. Edit: actually, I'm way off, seems like it's way more than that: http://safeassn.info/ONE_SAFE/presen...esentation.pdf
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Last edited by CosmicGirl; Apr 29, 2020 at 2:34 pm
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 2:33 pm
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Originally Posted by CosmicGirl
They can't just install plexiglass between seats like they have done in stores and call it a day. Anything that is added to the cabin needs to go through a certification process. They need to be sure everything stays in place during severe turbulence and doesn't cause unneccessary problems in the event of a crash. I may be off a little, but I believe seats are certified up to a 7G load so anything that is added would need to stay in place in similar conditions.
i alluded to this in one of my messages above. Yet, the size of government help should be enough to cover for that, unless of course certification process finds that an extra half a kilo of plastic makes the seat dangerous (i don't think that extra weight is likely to be an issue though, but more likely the way it affects the survivability of pax on impact and the easevof evacuation)
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 2:44 pm
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Originally Posted by maxvor
i alluded to this in one of my messages above. Yet, the size of government help should be enough to cover for that, unless of course certification process finds that an extra half a kilo of plastic makes the seat dangerous (i don't think that extra weight is likely to be an issue though, but more likely the way it affects the survivability of pax on impact and the easevof evacuation)
I would expect time to be more of a constraint than money when it comes to installing anything on board. Indeed, getting anything certified for evactuations and crashes would be one hell of a job.
I don't think it'll happen. After all, everyone is still breathing the same air.
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Old Apr 29, 2020, 4:59 pm
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I agree. Adding plastic shields around economy class seats is pie-in-the-sky stuff. Seats are going to stay the way they are. What will change are the operational processes and new sanitization rituals that will provide the assurance that airlines are doing what they can.

There is a certain level of risk we will all have to assume when we travel by air. It used to be the danger the flight would crash. Then came the terror threat after 911. Now there is the added threat of Covid-19, which looks set to be with us for the foreseaable future.

We will learn to live with it. Airports and airlines will do what they can to sceen passengers and we ourselves will protect ourselves as best we can. There is no other option I can see.
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Old Apr 30, 2020, 1:54 am
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Originally Posted by HalconBCN
I agree. Adding plastic shields around economy class seats is pie-in-the-sky stuff. Seats are going to stay the way they are. What will change are the operational processes and new sanitization rituals that will provide the assurance that airlines are doing what they can.

There is a certain level of risk we will all have to assume when we travel by air. It used to be the danger the flight would crash. Then came the terror threat after 911. Now there is the added threat of Covid-19, which looks set to be with us for the foreseaable future.

We will learn to live with it. Airports and airlines will do what they can to sceen passengers and we ourselves will protect ourselves as best we can. There is no other option I can see.
Agreed. For me, the only viable economical option (although might not be the most effective, but still to a certain percentage effective in preventing body fluids from spreading when sneezing, coughing) would be to make it compulsory to wear face masks when travelling (including on public transportation) rather than these fancy seats/plexi-glass separation.

Cheers!
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Old Apr 30, 2020, 3:03 am
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Originally Posted by nldogbert
Agreed. For me, the only viable economical option (although might not be the most effective, but still to a certain percentage effective in preventing body fluids from spreading when sneezing, coughing) would be to make it compulsory to wear face masks when travelling (including on public transportation) rather than these fancy seats/plexi-glass separation.
I would have thought that compulsory mask wearing would be a given anyway. The issue is whether it is enough and, if not, whether there are other sensible measures that can be taken (which the flexi-glass nonsense clearly is not).
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