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COVID-19: refund provided as voucher (for non refundable fares)

Old Apr 6, 2020, 7:58 am
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European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
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COVID-19: refund provided as voucher (for non refundable fares)

Old Mar 29, 2020, 3:35 am
  #121  
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Originally Posted by palmanfr
Unless you purchased a "trip" (i.e flight+hotel or flight+rental car on the AF website - in that case AF could say that they acted as a travel agent and therefore the ordonnance covers that case), this is just wrong. The recent ordonnance does not supersede flight only bookings and the ordonnance highlights that international regulation (i.e Montreal convention etc...) and European regulation (i.e 261/2004) are still valid. If you need some help with the translation of the ordonnance to reply to AF, please let me know via DM (although I am not a lawyer for the record, just an interested person in those topics)
Indeed. On a closer reading, you are correct: the ordonnance applies to package holidays and to direct sales of other touristic services such as hotel and car hire but not to flight (or other modes of transport) only bookings. Thanks for pointing that out, palmanfr.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 3:48 am
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Often1
Not worth arguing with AF, but clearly the US government did not cancel anything.
Even if they had, that makes no difference anyway. The right to reimbursement arises, whenever a flight is cancelled, for whatever reason and by whoever, whether it is the airline ops deciding to cancel, the pilot being unwell at the last minute, the airport being closed, a country closing its borders, little green men from Mars occupying the runway, etc...
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 3:52 am
  #123  
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Originally Posted by KLBGO
Have recieved email cancellation for 3 out of 4 legs on my 3-13th April journey. The app shows all 4 legs as cancelled. Today the last leg 13th of April was automatically rebooked with a minor time change.

Is KLM playing a trick on me?
I had the same on my ticket. Rebooking my LHR-AMS and AMS-LHR which were cancelled but I have no way doing my long hauls of AMS-BKK BKK-AMS, so either I sit in AMS for a week or scrap the lot. Wish KL would just cancel the entire ticket automatically - but the reasons for them not doing that are clear. 100% fed up with dealing with KLM now. No choice but to take the voucher as it is better than the other option - get nothing.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 4:16 am
  #124  
 
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They are playing a trick. Probably this happens to all customers not accepting vouchers.

I will gladly show up for 13th April flight, but better start driving today in case I am quarantined when entering NL.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 4:35 am
  #125  
 
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I have so far had 4 flights cancelled, first KLM rebooked one, which was cancelled again the day after. They offered me vouchers, I told them under EC261/2004 they should refund me like I requested and they are still refusing. They told me the vouchers are valid for 1 year and if I hadn’t used them by then they would refund me. I have no intention of ever flying with such a dishonest company ever again, so I have to wait a whole year for my money back. What else can I do?
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 6:09 am
  #126  
 
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Originally Posted by Winniesbestfriend
I have no intention of ever flying with such a dishonest company ever again,(...)
in which case, you will never fly never ever fly again.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 10:54 am
  #127  
 
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Originally Posted by NickB
Even if they had, that makes no difference anyway....little green men from Mars occupying the runway, etc...
Actually, I think little green men might make a different Just saying
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 11:13 am
  #128  
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Originally Posted by cfischer
agreed, but in several countries this is still possible at least with Amex. I filed a dispute with Amex US and the instantly approved a refund.
It's quite astounding that Amex France is refusing to dispute charges, citing that AF is a partner.

A whole string of actions taken by AF which are inconsistent with the law, followed by its partner protecting it. Collusion one might say?
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 12:22 pm
  #129  
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Originally Posted by siw
Wish KL would just cancel the entire ticket automatically
It's not happening like that. Think when we are in "normal times" : if you have a multi-leg itinerary and have one cancelled, your entire itinerary is never cancelled ! when this happen, you contact the airline or the TA and they rebook you on an alternate flight or on another alternate itinerary in some cases. This is the same situation here, except that rebooking options are inexistent in 99% cases. So you end up cancelling the entire trip but this is a 2nd step.

Originally Posted by KLBGO
Is KLM playing a trick on me?
Originally Posted by KLBGO
They are playing a trick.
Yes, they are of course
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 3:22 pm
  #130  
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Originally Posted by bostontraveler
It's quite astounding that Amex France is refusing to dispute charges, citing that AF is a partner.

A whole string of actions taken by AF which are inconsistent with the law, followed by its partner protecting it. Collusion one might say?
As they have cobranded cards with AFKL , they can jeopardize the situation of one of their customer/partner and also loose big money if AFKL collapse

Compare this situation to the claims or a bunch of Mr/Ms Smith , now you see why the choice is quickly done.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 3:24 pm
  #131  
 
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A most unusual thread: A first world airline refusing to refund a ticket for a cancelled flight (an illegal act), and some people thinking that is somewhat acceptable because they 'need the cash'.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 8:15 pm
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Msafiritx
A most unusual thread: A first world airline refusing to refund a ticket for a cancelled flight (an illegal act), and some people thinking that is somewhat acceptable because they 'need the cash'.
There is no doubt that it is "illegal".
But another example is the huge number of companies that stopped paying their suppliers. This is a fact of current life. Many companies have stopped production and sales, inventories are idle. The alternative "legal" option is filing for bankruptcy (growing number of cases in US). Suppliers could take those companies to court, but I doubt that they will until the lockdown situation improves and States provide enormous aid.
One can rant and rant. But as Presidents Macron, Trump and many others stated, this is war time. Expecting normal procedures to hold during war time is unreasonable.

I have some expensive refunds at stake and, like wifey, no more job pay. But I realize that times are exceptional, and understand/accept airlines' behavior.

Last edited by brunos; Mar 29, 2020 at 8:21 pm
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 8:59 pm
  #133  
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Originally Posted by brunos
There is no doubt that it is "illegal".
But another example is the huge number of companies that stopped paying their suppliers. This is a fact of current life. Many companies have stopped production and sales, inventories are idle. The alternative "legal" option is filing for bankruptcy (growing number of cases in US). Suppliers could take those companies to court, but I doubt that they will until the lockdown situation improves and States provide enormous aid.
One can rant and rant. But as Presidents Macron, Trump and many others stated, this is war time. Expecting normal procedures to hold during war time is unreasonable.

I have some expensive refunds at stake and, like wifey, no more job pay. But I realize that times are exceptional, and unders
tand/accept airlines' behavior.
Bruno please spare us the arrogance, Its painfully insufferable and uselessly provocative.

Yes I and others also understand that these these are exceptional times. I also understand airlines behavior.

This is a platform for flyers who seek to find solutions. Do you have anything practical to offer?
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Old Mar 30, 2020, 1:28 am
  #134  
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I know these are difficult times for everyone. But I need to remind posters of one of FlyerTalk's basic rules. You can comment a poster's opinion as being offensive or arrogant. But you cannot criticize a poster for being arrogant or offensive. It is a fine line to tread, especially today. Thanks for your cooperation.

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Last edited by JOUY31; Mar 30, 2020 at 1:29 am Reason: z
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Old Mar 30, 2020, 7:31 am
  #135  
 
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In my opinion, AF Short Term Liquidity should be fine...

Originally Posted by bostontraveler
Bruno please spare us the arrogance, Its painfully insufferable and uselessly provocative.

Yes I and others also understand that these these are exceptional times. I also understand airlines behavior.

This is a platform for flyers who seek to find solutions. Do you have anything practical to offer?

Hello bostontraveler,

I understand your frustration, and with respect to this topic, where there seems to be two opposing views, I am part of the group who thinks that Air France (or any other E.U. airline), as much difficult the current situation and exceptional the circumstances are, should make the full refund as an available option in case of flight cancellation.

Being a loyal customer and realizing that the liquidity crunch at the treasury level is obviously critical, I can decide to entertain the option of a voucher to help the company, but as many posters have pointed out before me, this should be my choice and not the airline imposing it on me.

In that, I respectfully disagree with Goldorak (despite recognizing him as an amazing contributor to this forum) and am siding with NickB.

There are other ways where I can, should I decide it, help and support Air France: purchasing through my brokerage account any corporate obligations Air France might issue in order to raise liquidity, purchasing AFKLM shares (should AFKLM decide to tap the equity market) etc...

Finally, it is worth noting that Air France has several emergency funding sources:

1. the corporate revolving credit facilities: working as an investment banker (previously in aviation finance and counting various airlines & lessors as clients), I can tell you that those are the most challenging products, because they are often not economically attractive, but you (as a bank) get drawn, sometimes preemptively, at the worst moment, especially during a crisis. AF, as well as the other airlines, esp. in the U.S. should be able to access a lot of liquidity, if not already done (United Airlines has even increased the size of its RCF two weeks ago). Those RCFs are there as a proof of goodwill from banks and for corporate relationship reasons.

2. the ECB plan stimulus in France: 2.1 trillion lent to banks (and partially guaranteed by the French government) in order to lend to corporates, in order to flood corporates treasury coffers with short/medium term liquidity.

All in, although we are going through exceptional times, I have reasons to believe that, at least for the coming months, liquidity will not be a life-or-death matter (profitability is another question), and this does not justify holding customers money hostage.

To finish, I find it unfair to call brunos comments arrogant. To be fair, I have always found his posts very balanced and nuanced, and he was merely thinking out loud. No reason to attack him.

I sincerely hope you will get the refund for which you are legitimately entitled (by law) to receive, and please do keep us posted!

Cheers,
vinnyc
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