Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.
Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
May 26, 2020, 8:54 am
#706
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Netherlands
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum for Life, AccorLiveLimitless Platinum, Qatar Airways Gold
Posts: 365
I just spoke to KLM and was told that the schedule for July flights will be published at the latest mid next week (3 June?). The current revised schedule is until 3 July, so that is 1-2 month ahead depending on if your flight is in the beginning or end of the month.
The current flexibility program is for flights up to 31 August 2020. I also wanted to cancel a flight for Oct 2020 and was advised by the agent to wait about 2 months because they will most likely move the 31 August date as well, that way I would not need to pay the cancellation fee (Award booking).
The current flexibility program is for flights up to 31 August 2020. I also wanted to cancel a flight for Oct 2020 and was advised by the agent to wait about 2 months because they will most likely move the 31 August date as well, that way I would not need to pay the cancellation fee (Award booking).
May 26, 2020, 8:58 am
#707
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: AerClub Platinum, ClubCarlson Gold, Hhonors Silver, IHG Spire Elite, Hotels.com Gold, BA blue
Posts: 65
I just spoke to KLM and was told that the schedule for July flights will be published at the latest mid next week (3 June?). The current revised schedule is until 3 July, so that is 1-2 month ahead depending on if your flight is in the beginning or end of the month.
The current flexibility program is for flights up to 31 August 2020. I also wanted to cancel a flight for Oct 2020 and was advised by the agent to wait about 2 months because they will most likely move the 31 August date as well, that way I would not need to pay the cancellation fee (Award booking).
The current flexibility program is for flights up to 31 August 2020. I also wanted to cancel a flight for Oct 2020 and was advised by the agent to wait about 2 months because they will most likely move the 31 August date as well, that way I would not need to pay the cancellation fee (Award booking).
May 26, 2020, 9:23 am
#708
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
As a request to cancel coming from you would lead to a non-refundable voucher with a face value of 115% of the price paid, you would be advised to wait until it becomes clear whether your ticket is affected by a cancellation. My expectation is, however, that past 4 July there will be sufficient DUB-AMS flights that your ticket is still "doable" even if the specific DUB-AMS flight you are currently on is cancelled, so that you may find yourself rebooked onto an operating flight with a slight delay but overall may struggle to get a direct refund on the basis of a cancellation.
There has been a DUB-AMS KLM flight (almost*?) every day throughout the pandemic.
But please come back and let us know what happens...
(*a single KL flight has been scheduled daily throughout the entire period, but may have, on some days, not been operated for other reasons)
EDIT: given that the AMS-GIG flight leaves at 15:00 on the days it operates, I don't foresee much change of your ticket being cancelled or becoming inoperable...
Last edited by irishguy28; May 26, 2020 at 9:30 am
May 26, 2020, 9:26 am
#709
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: EZE
Programs: UA Gold,Delta Gold Bonvoy Titanium Elite, HH Diamond , AA Platinum, EENational, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,548
A data point for refunds. I had 2 one way tickets ( FLL-ATL-CDG-AMM ) codeshared DL/AF in which a significant schedule changed occurred ( FLL-ATL-AMS-CDG-AMM ). Called Amex Travel to see if a full refund was possible; held for about 5 minutes as she contacted AF and came back that a refund was approved. Let me know that it can take up to 45 days as per the script. Good to know AF has loosened their stance on refunds.
May 26, 2020, 10:59 am
#710
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: AerClub Platinum, ClubCarlson Gold, Hhonors Silver, IHG Spire Elite, Hotels.com Gold, BA blue
Posts: 65
You can already request a voucher - there simply is no question of "full forfeiture" of the type suggested by that remark.
As a request to cancel coming from you would lead to a non-refundable voucher with a face value of 115% of the price paid, you would be advised to wait until it becomes clear whether your ticket is affected by a cancellation. My expectation is, however, that past 4 July there will be sufficient DUB-AMS flights that your ticket is still "doable" even if the specific DUB-AMS flight you are currently on is cancelled, so that you may find yourself rebooked onto an operating flight with a slight delay but overall may struggle to get a direct refund on the basis of a cancellation.
As a request to cancel coming from you would lead to a non-refundable voucher with a face value of 115% of the price paid, you would be advised to wait until it becomes clear whether your ticket is affected by a cancellation. My expectation is, however, that past 4 July there will be sufficient DUB-AMS flights that your ticket is still "doable" even if the specific DUB-AMS flight you are currently on is cancelled, so that you may find yourself rebooked onto an operating flight with a slight delay but overall may struggle to get a direct refund on the basis of a cancellation.
1. Canceled flights
2. If your trip was departing before 31 August 2020.
The only option I see in my bookings is in the event of a cancelation:
I'd gladly take a voucher now and use it to fly to less of a hotspot. Might give them a call and assess my options as the website is a carousel of obfuscation... Cheers for the info.
May 26, 2020, 11:36 am
#711
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum, Le ClubAccor Gold
Posts: 776
Oh, this is interesting. I thought requesting a voucher was only for:
1. Canceled flights
2. If your trip was departing before 31 August 2020.
The only option I see in my bookings is in the event of a cancelation:
I'd gladly take a voucher now and use it to fly to less of a hotspot. Might give them a call and assess my options as the website is a carousel of obfuscation... Cheers for the info.
1. Canceled flights
2. If your trip was departing before 31 August 2020.
The only option I see in my bookings is in the event of a cancelation:
I'd gladly take a voucher now and use it to fly to less of a hotspot. Might give them a call and assess my options as the website is a carousel of obfuscation... Cheers for the info.
In case you booked your ticket from April 22nd, then your ticket is changeable with no fee.
May 26, 2020, 1:02 pm
#712
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
I think you will need to wait much, much longer before it becomes clear what conditions will apply to your journey, if any deviations from the original conditions will ever apply.
(But given that your journey remained "possible" all through the peak of the pandemic, I don't think it's likely that your ticket for October will be cancelled)
May 26, 2020, 1:57 pm
#713
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
How far in advance do AF make a call on their schedules; cancellations etc?
I'm booked on an AMS > GIG flight in October but considering the mess Brazil is in at the moment, it's the last place I want to visit.
KL705 (AMS>GIG) has continued to operate throughout March and April which I can only assume are continuing repatriation flights. My only hope is that the connecting flight from DUB>AMS is cancelled so I can at least get a voucher instead of full forfeiture.
I'm booked on an AMS > GIG flight in October but considering the mess Brazil is in at the moment, it's the last place I want to visit.
KL705 (AMS>GIG) has continued to operate throughout March and April which I can only assume are continuing repatriation flights. My only hope is that the connecting flight from DUB>AMS is cancelled so I can at least get a voucher instead of full forfeiture.
May 26, 2020, 2:32 pm
#714
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: AerClub Platinum, ClubCarlson Gold, Hhonors Silver, IHG Spire Elite, Hotels.com Gold, BA blue
Posts: 65
You are right. In case you have booked your ticket before April 21st, you can just wait for them to extend the cut-off date beyond August 31st, which might happen next week when they publish the July-August schedule.
In case you booked your ticket from April 22nd, then your ticket is changeable with no fee.
In case you booked your ticket from April 22nd, then your ticket is changeable with no fee.
Sorry, I overlooked the fact that your flight isn't for another 5 months...
I think you will need to wait much, much longer before it becomes clear what conditions will apply to your journey, if any deviations from the original conditions will ever apply.
(But given that your journey remained "possible" all through the peak of the pandemic, I don't think it's likely that your ticket for October will be cancelled)
I think you will need to wait much, much longer before it becomes clear what conditions will apply to your journey, if any deviations from the original conditions will ever apply.
(But given that your journey remained "possible" all through the peak of the pandemic, I don't think it's likely that your ticket for October will be cancelled)
Yeah, I agree but my other half isn't having it. I've asked her not to completely throw in the towel just yet. We'll reassess in late August/early Sept but right now, it looks very unlikely we'll go on that trip which sucks.
May 27, 2020, 11:11 pm
#715
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum, Le ClubAccor Gold
Posts: 776
From the KLM website, some information on the 15% top-up on voucher:
I find it quite restrictive in the timeframe to use, especially if you have a large amount.
I find it quite restrictive in the timeframe to use, especially if you have a large amount.
2. Request a refund in the form of a travel voucher
If you choose to postpone your trip, we will provide you with a refund in the form of a travel voucher.- Your travel voucher is valid to use until 31 December 2021 and can be used on KLM, Air France, Delta Air Lines, Virgin Atlantic, and Kenya Airways flights.
- You can use your voucher to book a flight that takes place after the expiration date of the voucher.
- You’ll profit from a 15% bonus if you use the voucher as a payment method before 30 September 2020, and your new scheduled departure date is before 15 June 2021.
- If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year from the date of issue. If you’ve requested a voucher while your flight was not cancelled by the airline, the travel voucher is non-refundable.
May 28, 2020, 1:21 am
#716
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NCE
Programs: FB Ultimate - BA EC - LH M&M - Accor All Gold
Posts: 267
AF: Refundable voucher for voluntary cancellation ?
AF have update their policy on May 27th now saying that they offer refundable vouchers for flights before August 31st even if the flight is not cancelled by the airline.
KL says the opposite and nothing related to the 15% bonus on AF... 
May 28, 2020, 1:27 am
#717
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
God almighty.. this has to be la crème de la crème of all things convoluted... by design of course... which is the worst part. 👹
May 28, 2020, 4:32 am
#718
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 102
Also the cutoff dates do not seem to be chosen by accident. They have to be flown before the next summer holidays, which is of course when people would want to use them. And not many people are going to be booking travel before September because there is too much uncertainty,
I hope the ACM (Dutch consumer protection agency) is going to take action on this, however given the earlier stance of the Dutch government this seems unlikely...
May 29, 2020, 2:30 am
#719
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NCE
Programs: FB Ultimate - BA EC - LH M&M - Accor All Gold
Posts: 267
Is there a pilot in the plane ?
New policy change for AF on May 28th. Wow ! In case of voluntary cancellation, they now "offer" refundable vouchers only for refundable original tickets...
May 29, 2020, 3:09 am
#720
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
The multiple before dates x, after dates y are beyond annoying. How about give us the refund NOW as is mandated by European law??