Old Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
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Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm

Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf

European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.

Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.

Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/


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COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy

Old Mar 25, 2020, 8:56 pm
  #316  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by siw
I was told by the AMEX person that there is no point starting an application because in her opinion it will fail. I have my e-ticket, the KLM website timetable shows the cancelled flight and the KLM website shows that only a voucher will be given as a 'refund'. Cannot see what more I (or anyone) can do. I guess AMEX want no part in helping their customers.

I see now the KLM website has stated that the voucher can be refunded after 1 year. I guess I have zero option but to take the voucher, hope that KLM exists so it can be used, hope that it can be used for the same cabin and route but I expect KLM to raise the prices so I have to pay more to get the same trip.
Don't listen to the customer service agents run around and fobbing off advice, just politely ask them to actually proceed with initiating the chargeback dispute and let the dispute manager/investigator take it from there
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 12:23 am
  #317  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
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Right now if your flight is cancelled af is giving refundable vouchers if not used before expiration date... but i guess still have to wait one year.... good luck
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 1:07 am
  #318  
 
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I have two bookings coming up this weekend; already requested the vouchers last week but not recieved and booking is still showing as active.

I assume I don't have to do anything, and that I will get the vouchers regardless of whether I will "miss" my flights? As they were requested before the flight date.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 1:39 am
  #319  
 
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Originally Posted by Goldorak
Guys
I am quite surprised to see how vehement some of you are against AFKL pushing for giving vouchers instead of cash and threaten to go to court, etc. The situation is critical regarding cash for all airlines. When you are a one-time or very infrequent AFKL flyer, you are of course fully legitimate to request a cash refund as you have no visibility to reschedule your trip. But if you are a regular or semi-regular customer, you have no risk taking the voucher as the French and Dutch governments will never let AFKL bite the dust and so you will use your voucher(s) quickly and for any destination. Doing that you contribute to not aggravate an already critical situation.
its time IMHO to adopt the right and responsible attitude during this very special period.
I'm surprised by the complete lack of understanding that some people have for those of us that don't feel it's reasonable for us to be forced to provide a loan to AF/KLM for at least a year, along with taking on their risk of default. The fact that I may have flown often in the past and hope to fly with AF/KLM again in the future is irrelevant. No one knows how long this situation will last, what AF/KLM will look like after the crisis, what my travel needs will look like after the crisis nor whether I'll ever actually be able to use such a voucher or ever get the refund promised a year from now.

You're right, this is an extraordinary situation. Please explain to me why in a time with very difficult economic times on the horizon it's ok to expect average consumers to bare the difficulties ok AF/KLM? Why is their need for cash superior to mine? I find your assumptions above totally offensive. You're effectively saying it's ok for me to be out any sum of cash for a service AF/KLM is unable to provide due to canceling flughts. THAT is the wrong and totally irresponsible attitude.
mfkne, palmanfr, 36902BRF and 4 others like this.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 2:21 am
  #320  
 
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On the other hand if refunding all tickets cash now could cause AF KL bankruptcy in the process, then many ticket holders would end up without a refund, without a voucher, or with a voucher good for nothing. I guess their strategy is to wait until the loan/cash injection promised by FR and NL governments arrives and allows them enough cash flow to continue operations and refund liabilities without going via bankruptcy proceedings. And if some courts or jurisdictions give them fines, they are ready to pay them.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 2:38 am
  #321  
 
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That's all fine and dandy, but doesn't affect my right and desire to have the money owed to me by AFKL back.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 4:27 am
  #322  
 
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I posted a bit more on the thread in the Air France specific forum, but it seems the French government is giving AF and other airlines legal cover for this refundable voucher practice with ordonnance 2020-315, which was proclaimed yesterday. The guidance that the EC is publishing around EC261/2004 also suggests that when national law provides for refunds through vouchers, they count as refunds under that regulation. All of this also gives the credit card companies grounds to deny chargebacks as well.

So it seems that yes, in a normal situation, you would have the right to a full cash refund, the flurry of legislative and regulatory activity happening in this crisis are changing those rights quite a lot.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 4:44 am
  #323  
 
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This would be irrelevant with regards to KLM for now though I suppose.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 4:59 am
  #324  
 
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Originally Posted by CanuckInParis
I posted a bit more on the thread in the Air France specific forum
​​​​​​Where?
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 7:23 am
  #325  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Award flight refunds

I have two business class award flights in May which I assume wont happen. The flying blue miles were already about to expire in May because of a 2019 trip I had to cancel. Anybody know if A) my refund will be in miles and B) Iwill get an extension on those miles until next year? Id call but I dont feel like waiting for hours and hours.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 7:59 am
  #326  
 
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Just finally received the note of cancellation from KLM. Called the PSL (with zero wait, which is amazing), and was denied a cash refund. Didn't debate but called AMEX right away. Again no wait, the agent submitted the chargeback and only asked for the booking confirmation and the cancellation note.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 8:37 am
  #327  
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Originally Posted by cfischer
yep. I gave them a chance by filling out a refund request, but if I don't hear from AF in 72 hours I will file a charge-back claim with Amex.
I gave them 5 days to respond and they haven't so I filed a charge-back with Amex which they instantly approved. This was Amex Plat US.
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 9:31 am
  #328  
 
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FWIW in the Netherlands, I contacted ICS cards which is the largest creditcard supplier in NL. According to a spokesperson, a voucher is considered a sufficient alternative for a refund. Only if no 'equivalent offer such as a voucher or free rebooking' is provided, a chargeback can be initiated.
I am still waiting for a response from AMEX (NL).

Edit: Correction: if the alternative offered by the provider is "not considered to be sufficient by the cardholder", a chargeback may still be initiated. Every claim will be reviewed individually on its merits. ICS calls upon cardholders to accept alternatives, such as vouchers, where possible. But in contrast to my previous interpretation, a voucher is not necessarily and automatically considered a sufficient alternative which would disqualify one for a chargeback request.

Last edited by KLflyerRalph; Mar 31, 2020 at 2:41 am
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 11:09 am
  #329  
 
Join Date: May 2009
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Just received an email this morning that my flight (AMS-BKK) has been cancelled.

Has anyone had any experience with doing chargebacks with Chase/Chase Sapphire? I know that most of everyone here has been referencing Amex, but just seeing if you guys have had success with Chase and the chargebacks with AF/KLM.

Do you guys suggest using this website to request for a refund: https://refunds.klm.com/rps/Forms/frmMain.aspx? And then requesting for the chargeback (if you don't hear back from the refunds website) after the expected date of travel (cancelled flight date)?
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Old Mar 26, 2020, 11:13 am
  #330  
 
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Originally Posted by KLflyerRalph
FWIW in the Netherlands, I contacted ICS cards which is the largest creditcard supplier in NL. According to a spokesperson, a voucher is considered a sufficient alternative for a refund. Only if no 'equivalent offer such as a voucher or free rebooking' is provided, a chargeback can be initiated..
This is why I used AMEX whenever possible- just so much less fuss.
mfkne is offline  

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