Old Mar 17, 2020, 1:00 pm
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Last edit by: oliver2002
Air France's rebooking policy: https://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm?_ga=2.60869669.82286185.1584471569-101309917.1487618201 KLM's rebooking policy: https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/up_to_date/flight_update/index.htm

Worksheet/flowchart for Travel Agents: http://image.email.bluebiz.info/lib/fe9013727c62017f75/m/4/575524f1-d29b-4548-b393-eb5ab0eee26b.pdf

European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020 US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.

Some additional information:
1) North American ticket holders can typically request chargebacks from their banks.
2) Furthermore, for flights that touch US soil, they may also file complains with the US DOT.
3) American Express in France and in the Netherlands reportedly refuse to open chargeback disputes for cardholders. Unclear whether other banks are following this policy.
4) At this stage, 14 EU member states out of 27 support amending EC261 regulation (which mandates airlines give the consumer the choice of a refund) for the duration of the crisis. Some of these member states have already suspended the enforcement of the regulation with respect to the obligation for a refund. Air France/KLM supports the proposed amendment.

Statement by 12 of these 14 EU member states: https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/passenger-rights/coronavirus-twelve-eu-member-states-ask-commission-to-amend-regulation-ec-261-2004-to-allow-issuance-of-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refund/


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COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy

Old Mar 23, 2020, 1:17 pm
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Originally Posted by siw
Is my only option for a refund to speak to AMEX, since I used my credit card for the purchase. I do not know the best contact now that KLM will not give a cash refund.
I doubt there is anyone else at KLM who would be willing or able to override this at the moment, so go straight to AMEX.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 1:18 pm
  #242  
 
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Originally Posted by Paul74
And also it will take months to get a refund via bank
Then you should get a different credit card - AMEX chargebacks are processed within days.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 2:42 pm
  #243  
 
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Originally Posted by TLSpace
Another data point, my outbound KLM booked and operated flight on Friday was cancelled. I asked for a cash refund but was denied stating extreme circumstances. So either rebook to later date or get a voucher.
Thanks for this data point. That's pretty much what I figured was going to happen...

I know that airlines fight for survival and things will most likely get worse... and to be honest, if I had a guarantee that I will get my money back in a year (in this form or another), that I'm not gonna need it in the meantime and that my gesture would help AirFrance/KLM, I would let them have it. No charge. I do have an emotional attachment to the brand, they have been really good to me a reasonable number of times and I wish all of their employees well. But here's the thing - this time these quoted "extreme circumstances" apply not only to an airline running out of cash - they apply to everybody.

Taking somebody's money, sometimes weeks' wages if we think about family's holidays or multiple bookings, somebody's money who might have just lost a job, or is about to lose it, not providing service, NOT paying taxes good chunk of that money was for... how is that different from stealing from somebody's wallet? Even though the thief may have every and honest intention to return it in a year when he no longer needs it...he cannot guarantee that he, or the person he took it from, will be around in a year. The fact that it is done quietly hoping most not so savvy travellers will not fight back..or won't be able to fight back not having resources or charge back options... it just makes it even more despicable and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. And that goes for the whole of the industry, not just the KLM.

But in the spirit of bringing some solutions to the table, and not only the problems... why not to have this - you want to borrow my money? Pay intrests. The same way everybody else asking for credit does. Incentify the "voucher" option - either increase its value with time, or, I don't know, offer free upgrade to World Business in the future? Those who can afford taking the risk can go for it, and those who need their hard earned money because they found themselves in the very same "extreme circumstances" KLM is in... they can have their money back... This way you're building brand loyality, "we're in this together" kind of thing, you have a free PR campaign all over the internet media, and - if you are lucky to survive the crisis - you're not really gonna lose much in real terms, if anything at all.

Alternatives are to take all " working Joes' " money away from them for a wee while upsetting a lot of them and hoping that will be enough to survive, take all the money and go down anyway like a drowning pro trying to drag down underwater anyone within the reach of their hands... or - and if I were a betting person that's were my money would go - take all those free instrest loans from desperate people.. and then come back for a second round - ask government for a taxpayers bailout...

Long live the corporate West
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 3:29 pm
  #244  
 
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Originally Posted by mfkne
Then you should get a different credit card - AMEX chargebacks are processed within days.
Not right now...over a week and waiting for me.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 4:08 pm
  #245  
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Originally Posted by siw
Spoke to an agent at the PSL and (as expected) was told that I can only have a voucher and not a refund - my ticket was a non refundable econmy class ticket
what is the PSL ??

Originally Posted by siw
Is my only option for a refund to speak to AMEX, since I used my credit card for the purchase.
It is one possible option but you should use first the regular one , cause you might find yourself in a procedure that might cost you way more than what you paid

Originally Posted by siw
I do not know the best contact now that KLM will not give a cash refund.
Did you reached the KLM support by email or phone or webchat ???

Keep in mind that it is in the best interest of the airline to avoid refund by ALL means necessary due to the situation , and also this PSL agent might not know all details about laws , but just repeat whatever KLM told her/him to say

Originally Posted by siw
The KLM website confirms that my LHR-AMS flight is cancelled.
Your first option is to make KLM apply the law

Which mean , if the flight is cancelled , and if they are not able to fulfill their part of the contract and if none of the options offered are suitable then you are entitled for a refund regardless of the fare you purchased

Beware of "exceptional circumstances" , cause you need to know why this flight was cancelled . Was it due to capacity reductions or by decision from UK/NL authorities ??

If after verification you are allowed for a full refund then follow the legal process and see where it goes

Originally Posted by canadavid
When buying an AF-coded flight on KLM website (ticketed 074), which rebooking conditions apply ? AF or KLM ?
only apply condition of the airline who sold this ticket , the operating airline is another story

Last edited by fifty_two; Mar 23, 2020 at 4:17 pm
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 4:09 pm
  #246  
 
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Well said Skyhighlander.
I'm looking for a refund of approx 3500 for 3 return flights to Japan.
Haven't worked for 2 weeks now, so giving AF a long term loan isn't a priority for me.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 4:11 pm
  #247  
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Originally Posted by fifty_two
Beware of "exceptional circumstances" , cause you need to know why this flight was cancelled
No, you don't. Extraordinary circumstances are irrelevant for a refund following a cancellation.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 4:14 pm
  #248  
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Originally Posted by NickB
No, you don't. Extraordinary circumstances are irrelevant for a refund following a cancellation.
ok thanks , i wasnt sure , so then siw can proceed
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 4:25 pm
  #249  
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question = 7 days ago i requested a voucher by webform for a flight in may 2k20 and still no answer . how long does it take to handle such request ? any feedback ?? should i ping them by another channel ??
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 8:29 pm
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Originally Posted by mfkne
Then you should get a different credit card - AMEX chargebacks are processed within days.
Not so fast.
I just contested the charge yesterday. "Expected resolution: May 10th"-- almost 7-8 weeks.
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 11:21 pm
  #251  
 
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Originally Posted by fifty_two
question = 7 days ago i requested a voucher by webform for a flight in may 2k20 and still no answer . how long does it take to handle such request ? any feedback ?? should i ping them by another channel ??
I think just be patient... i requested one last monday by phone with klm...still waiting
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Old Mar 23, 2020, 11:53 pm
  #252  
 
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Originally Posted by kyushuman
Not so fast.
I just contested the charge yesterday. "Expected resolution: May 10th"-- almost 7-8 weeks.
Fair enough, they're probably very busy right now (mostly due to the airlines' failure to do the right thing), but at least you'll know you get your money back - with a voucher from any airline you'll never know.
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Old Mar 24, 2020, 1:27 am
  #253  
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Originally Posted by fifty_two
what is the PSL ??
Platinum Service Line
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Old Mar 24, 2020, 2:48 am
  #254  
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Goldorak
Platinum Service Line
Originally Posted by Wil973
I think just be patient... i requested one last monday by phone with klm...still waiting
thanks both
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Old Mar 24, 2020, 2:55 am
  #255  
 
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Just been on the blower to AF reference a cancelled flight in 48hrs. Voucher is the only refund option offered. Arguing with the guy on the phone was a non starter, it's not his fault as he just says what AF management tell him to. Even acknowledged the fact that they are not following EC regulations, do I have any other recourse with AF or is any other contact method worth trying? I can afford to 'park' the money with them but that's not really the point, as others have said why should they benefit from my funds interest free
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