Trying to Understand Upgrade Availability for AF
Dec 12, 2018, 8:22 am
#46
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Dec 12, 2018, 8:41 am
#47
Left Expert Flyer 4/23
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@ExpertFlyer Voice I'm curious how your service works with regard to showing O availability in this case? ExpertFlyer's interface was showing O5 for AF 995 on Jan 2. As I said before when I called AF after seeing this availability in your tool they said they had no O availability. You replied here and said that Delta was showing O availability. Based upon the information that your site returns, how would a user know that the availability showing for O availability was actually from another airline (i.e. in this case Delta) and not from the airline that the user is checking (i.e. in this case Air France)? Ultimately, I used the KVS tool to see the Delta O availability but could not figure out how/where I could have realized this using the ExpertFlyer tool.
AF doesn't use constrained award inventory anymore from their flights when booking via FlyingBlue. They use variable award pricing now that changes with the money price of the flight.
Dec 12, 2018, 8:48 am
#48
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It's not "from another airline" AF is publishing O5 for that flight into the global reservation systems and that's what EF, DL, etc see.
AF doesn't use constrained award inventory anymore from their flights when booking via FlyingBlue. They use variable award pricing now that changes with the money price of the flight.
AF doesn't use constrained award inventory anymore from their flights when booking via FlyingBlue. They use variable award pricing now that changes with the money price of the flight.
Dec 12, 2018, 9:17 am
#49
Left Expert Flyer 4/23
Join Date: Jan 2005
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OK, thanks @ExpertFlyer Voice. Then how come when I called FB they weren't showing any O availability to offer me an upgrade with FB miles? However, when I called Delta, they saw the O availability in their system and were able to offer me the upgrade using Delta miles?
Dec 12, 2018, 3:10 pm
#50
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@KVS Thanks for the tip about applying a SkyTeam Upgrade on this (JNB-CDG) segment. I called Delta Skymiles and asked if I could use Delta miles for an upgrade I booked on AF on the AF website. Delta told me I could do this with a SkyTeam upgrade and they charged me 35K miles for the SkyTeam upgrade. Much less than I thought it would be. Again, thank you for the guidance.
Dec 14, 2018, 10:14 am
#51
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@KVS and @ExpertFlyer Voice I'm hoping you can help clarify the opposite of what I was seeing above. On December 25, the KVS tool shows CS availability (for 4 or more seats) for AF 23. This has been showing for the past couple of days.
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
Dec 14, 2018, 10:26 am
#52
Left Expert Flyer 4/23
Join Date: Jan 2005
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@KVS and @ExpertFlyer Voice I'm hoping you can help clarify the opposite of what I was seeing above. On December 25, the KVS tool shows CS availability (for 4 or more seats) for AF 23. This has been showing for the past couple of days.
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
AF itself doesn't have capacity controls for its own flight awards anymore, just varying award prices, so the flight should always show as "available" if there are tickets available, the question is at what miles cost. But that doesn't correspond to the published O inventory that is used by partners.
Dec 14, 2018, 10:38 am
#53
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No, you are comparing two different things. The O inventory shown on ExpertFlyer is what partners see. If you do the same search on DL or Alitalia for example neither of them will show Business award inventory for the AF flight either.
AF itself doesn't have capacity controls for its own flight awards anymore, just varying award prices, so the flight should always show as "available" if there are tickets available, the question is at what miles cost. But that doesn't correspond to the published O inventory that is used by partners.
AF itself doesn't have capacity controls for its own flight awards anymore, just varying award prices, so the flight should always show as "available" if there are tickets available, the question is at what miles cost. But that doesn't correspond to the published O inventory that is used by partners.
Dec 14, 2018, 10:47 am
#54
Left Expert Flyer 4/23
Join Date: Jan 2005
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@ExpertFlyer Voice So if AF doesn't have capacity controls anymore and doesn't even list O as option on certain flights (like this one where I don't even see 'O0') how does one know if there's upgrade availability in advance with miles? Since I thought one of the ways to determine upgrade availability with AF was to look for O availability?
If you don't see O class, you can assume it's 0. Upgrade with who? FB or a partner? If you mean with FB then that may not be the case anymore after AF/KLM changed how awards worked for FlyingBlue months back: https://thepointsguy.com/2018/03/fly...ng-calculator/ If you want to know how AF processes upgrades now, you should ask AF.
Dec 14, 2018, 1:55 pm
#55
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@KVS and @ExpertFlyer Voice I'm hoping you can help clarify the opposite of what I was seeing above. On December 25, the KVS tool shows CS availability (for 4 or more seats) for AF 23. This has been showing for the past couple of days.
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
However, when I look at the ExpertFlyer interface it doesn't (and has not since yesterday) shown any O availability:
So if KVS' CS equates to EF's O availability why doesn't EF show any O availability?
There is no "discrepancy" -- this is by-design:
There are 2 separate types of O/CS Availability: One for FB own members (which only the KVS Tool supports) and one for Partners (which KVS Tool also supports, separately).
The latter: Only the KVS Tool supports Dynamically-Priced FB Awards (CR/CV/YR/YV), as well as the Extended FB Availability for its own members (as described above).
Please see above and also consult the AF/KL/KQ/A5 sections of the KVS Tool User Guide for a detailed listing of these Booking Classes.
There are 2 separate types of O/CS Availability: One for FB own members (which only the KVS Tool supports) and one for Partners (which KVS Tool also supports, separately).
The latter: Only the KVS Tool supports Dynamically-Priced FB Awards (CR/CV/YR/YV), as well as the Extended FB Availability for its own members (as described above).
Please see above and also consult the AF/KL/KQ/A5 sections of the KVS Tool User Guide for a detailed listing of these Booking Classes.
To see CS Partner Award/Upgrade Availability (that DL and other airline agents see), use the [Awards/DL-SkyTeam] Method in the KVS Tool.
Dec 19, 2018, 8:13 am
#56
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No, they still have capacity controls for partner awards and that's what O class is, they just don't apply that internally when redeeming via Flying Blue.
If you don't see O class, you can assume it's 0. Upgrade with who? FB or a partner? If you mean with FB then that may not be the case anymore after AF/KLM changed how awards worked for FlyingBlue months back: https://thepointsguy.com/2018/03/fly...ng-calculator/ If you want to know how AF processes upgrades now, you should ask AF.
If you don't see O class, you can assume it's 0. Upgrade with who? FB or a partner? If you mean with FB then that may not be the case anymore after AF/KLM changed how awards worked for FlyingBlue months back: https://thepointsguy.com/2018/03/fly...ng-calculator/ If you want to know how AF processes upgrades now, you should ask AF.
Dec 19, 2018, 12:15 pm
#57
Left Expert Flyer 4/23
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I just want to confirm to the readers that seeing O availability on EF for an AF flight doesn't necessarily mean that AF will allow you to redeem FB miles for that upgrade. The O availability on EF only means that AF partners (e.g. Delta) can redeem miles for upgrades. This morning I received an alert from EF showing the CDG-CPT portion of my flight (AF 864) was available with O availability (see below). I immediately called FB and they told me they did NOT have O availability since I preferred to use FB miles (over SkyMiles) for an upgrade. I then called Delta and they confirmed they DID have O availability using SkyMiles for an upgrade. So I guess that means that the EF tool is limited in finding true O availability using FB miles on an AF or KLM flight since, as @ExpertFlyer Voice said, AF has switched to the variable pricing using FB miles. @ExpertFlyer Voice do you think your software will be updated to identify true O availability using FB miles?
Apr 21, 2019, 11:08 pm
#58
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New York City
Programs: Delta Platinum
Posts: 97
I'm so glad that I found this thread, as I am dealing with (and even posted about) some of the same stuff that I'm dealing with at the moment for an upcoming Air France trip from NYC to Asia and back.
I can offer a lot of insight based on my current situation I think, and here are some of the main points:
-- First, Air France actually has 2 types of O inventory ... The "award" which is the full ticket ... and the "upgrade" when you're working off a paid fare. I was advised this by one agent, and actually I work at a travel agency which has GDS access. 'O' for me shows different numbers when I'm out of my booking vs. in my booking (aka it sees I have the confirmed segment booked paid)
-- Second, yes you must search END TO END, there is no way around that. The availability changes based on the city pair market you're flying. The upgrades however don't have to be done all the way through, nor do they have to be available for all "married" segments at the same time. For example, My return PEK-CDG-JFK ended up popping up 1 "Upgrade O" but only on the CDG-JFK portion. I took it for just 15,000 miles from S class. My PEK-CDG remains as it was before, and still a week later nothing has opened on it (I check daily)
-- Third, AF absolutely holds upgrades as long as they can. My return in approx 40 days and one of the two flights (PEK-CDG) has not sold even 1 seat in business, at least according to the completely open business class seat map. Yet still, I've been trying for about a month now and not a day has gone by where they've opened a seat for upgrade specifically. It is however available for full purchase in miles on their website. They've released seats for award use, but again that "O upgrade" is not available.
I can offer a lot of insight based on my current situation I think, and here are some of the main points:
-- First, Air France actually has 2 types of O inventory ... The "award" which is the full ticket ... and the "upgrade" when you're working off a paid fare. I was advised this by one agent, and actually I work at a travel agency which has GDS access. 'O' for me shows different numbers when I'm out of my booking vs. in my booking (aka it sees I have the confirmed segment booked paid)
-- Second, yes you must search END TO END, there is no way around that. The availability changes based on the city pair market you're flying. The upgrades however don't have to be done all the way through, nor do they have to be available for all "married" segments at the same time. For example, My return PEK-CDG-JFK ended up popping up 1 "Upgrade O" but only on the CDG-JFK portion. I took it for just 15,000 miles from S class. My PEK-CDG remains as it was before, and still a week later nothing has opened on it (I check daily)
-- Third, AF absolutely holds upgrades as long as they can. My return in approx 40 days and one of the two flights (PEK-CDG) has not sold even 1 seat in business, at least according to the completely open business class seat map. Yet still, I've been trying for about a month now and not a day has gone by where they've opened a seat for upgrade specifically. It is however available for full purchase in miles on their website. They've released seats for award use, but again that "O upgrade" is not available.
Apr 22, 2019, 2:27 am
#59
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I'm so glad that I found this thread, as I am dealing with (and even posted about) some of the same stuff that I'm dealing with at the moment for an upcoming Air France trip from NYC to Asia and back.
I can offer a lot of insight based on my current situation I think, and here are some of the main points:
-- First, Air France actually has 2 types of O inventory ... The "award" which is the full ticket ... and the "upgrade" when you're working off a paid fare. I was advised this by one agent, and actually I work at a travel agency which has GDS access. 'O' for me shows different numbers when I'm out of my booking vs. in my booking (aka it sees I have the confirmed segment booked paid)
-- Second, yes you must search END TO END, there is no way around that. The availability changes based on the city pair market you're flying. The upgrades however don't have to be done all the way through, nor do they have to be available for all "married" segments at the same time. For example, My return PEK-CDG-JFK ended up popping up 1 "Upgrade O" but only on the CDG-JFK portion. I took it for just 15,000 miles from S class. My PEK-CDG remains as it was before, and still a week later nothing has opened on it (I check daily)
-- Third, AF absolutely holds upgrades as long as they can. My return in approx 40 days and one of the two flights (PEK-CDG) has not sold even 1 seat in business, at least according to the completely open business class seat map. Yet still, I've been trying for about a month now and not a day has gone by where they've opened a seat for upgrade specifically. It is however available for full purchase in miles on their website. They've released seats for award use, but again that "O upgrade" is not available.
I can offer a lot of insight based on my current situation I think, and here are some of the main points:
-- First, Air France actually has 2 types of O inventory ... The "award" which is the full ticket ... and the "upgrade" when you're working off a paid fare. I was advised this by one agent, and actually I work at a travel agency which has GDS access. 'O' for me shows different numbers when I'm out of my booking vs. in my booking (aka it sees I have the confirmed segment booked paid)
-- Second, yes you must search END TO END, there is no way around that. The availability changes based on the city pair market you're flying. The upgrades however don't have to be done all the way through, nor do they have to be available for all "married" segments at the same time. For example, My return PEK-CDG-JFK ended up popping up 1 "Upgrade O" but only on the CDG-JFK portion. I took it for just 15,000 miles from S class. My PEK-CDG remains as it was before, and still a week later nothing has opened on it (I check daily)
-- Third, AF absolutely holds upgrades as long as they can. My return in approx 40 days and one of the two flights (PEK-CDG) has not sold even 1 seat in business, at least according to the completely open business class seat map. Yet still, I've been trying for about a month now and not a day has gone by where they've opened a seat for upgrade specifically. It is however available for full purchase in miles on their website. They've released seats for award use, but again that "O upgrade" is not available.
one comment, a seat map is never an accurate representation of actual bookings, even in J. All frequent flyers on this forum would tell you that we have flown 100% full flights with seat maps who were showing empty or close to a few days before and almost empty flights when the seat map was showing all seats taken. I would be very surprised that AF did not sell a single J seat to PEK for a flight in 40 days. Many explanations : some people do not pre-assign a seat (even in J), a part of the inventory is sold by code-share partners which may not have access to seat pre-assignments (a very frequent issue, even within an alliance), etc
Apr 22, 2019, 12:48 pm
#60
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New York City
Programs: Delta Platinum
Posts: 97
Thank you for those useful information
one comment, a seat map is never an accurate representation of actual bookings, even in J. All frequent flyers on this forum would tell you that we have flown 100% full flights with seat maps who were showing empty or close to a few days before and almost empty flights when the seat map was showing all seats taken. I would be very surprised that AF did not sell a single J seat to PEK for a flight in 40 days. Many explanations : some people do not pre-assign a seat (even in J), a part of the inventory is sold by code-share partners which may not have access to seat pre-assignments (a very frequent issue, even within an alliance), etc
I also have a theory that AF is sponsoring the air for maybe a travel industry tour group. We get these at the travel agency where I work, but they usually don't block off seat assignments or records for a while (until about 1-2 weeks prior) HOWEVER, they've already pulled exactly the number of seats they need out of the inventory already and put a block on them internally. If this happened, it can definitely block the FB upgrade with miles.
I guess time will tell in my case, still 40 days to see if it sorts itself!