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AF staff vote down pay deal. Janaillac resigns. Benjamin Smith new CEO

AF staff vote down pay deal. Janaillac resigns. Benjamin Smith new CEO

Old May 8, 2018, 11:26 pm
  #46  
 
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Originally Posted by Goldorak

sorry, but I don’t see your point here. Are you “blaming” them for living in other cities than Paris and commuting to their base, or for not flying enough hours compared to competition?
if the former, AF staff is no different from other airlines. It is very common everywhere to live somewhere else than the main base. If the latter, yes certainly.
I do not blame anyone, certainly a Junior Cabin Crew with a low salary cannot afford to live in Paris. Not producing enough hours (Pilots and Crew) with AF Old Contracts is a reality that most of us know here, flying Long-Haul 3 or 4 times a month is not possible with the current competition in the market nowadays (U2/FR/EK/EY/QR). Salaries are to be in accordance with the market, the economy of the country and the profits or losses of the company, clearly AF is showing red numbers. Asking for higher salaries and staying with 3 or 4 flights a month is something that will not contribute to the future of AF or any other operator in the Aviation Industry TODAY.
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Old May 9, 2018, 12:48 am
  #47  
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Originally Posted by giancarlosil
I do not blame anyone, certainly a Junior Cabin Crew with a low salary cannot afford to live in Paris. Not producing enough hours (Pilots and Crew) with AF Old Contracts is a reality that most of us know here, flying Long-Haul 3 or 4 times a month is not possible with the current competition in the market nowadays (U2/FR/EK/EY/QR). Salaries are to be in accordance with the market, the economy of the country and the profits or losses of the company, clearly AF is showing red numbers. Asking for higher salaries and staying with 3 or 4 flights a month is something that will not contribute to the future of AF or any other operator in the Aviation Industry TODAY.
Fair point.
A lot of staff live in the Northern suburbs which are quite cheaper than Paris. But I also know some who live in the South of France and commute (free tickets) to take their longhaul duties at CDG.
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Old May 9, 2018, 1:53 am
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by giancarlosil
I do not blame anyone, certainly a Junior Cabin Crew with a low salary cannot afford to live in Paris. Not producing enough hours (Pilots and Crew) with AF Old Contracts is a reality that most of us know here, flying Long-Haul 3 or 4 times a month is not possible with the current competition in the market nowadays (U2/FR/EK/EY/QR). Salaries are to be in accordance with the market, the economy of the country and the profits or losses of the company, clearly AF is showing red numbers. Asking for higher salaries and staying with 3 or 4 flights a month is something that will not contribute to the future of AF or any other operator in the Aviation Industry TODAY.
Do you mean "3 or 4 flights" or "3 or 4 trips" (=6-8 flights)?

Let's say on average 3.5 journeys = 7 flights a month. Let's assume an average stage length of 9 hours, that is 63 block hours. Times 12 months a year that is 756 block hours. The legal maximum is 900 hours.

Seriously, if they clock up 756 block hours a year that's pretty decent, considering that they were more in the 550 hours/year range. This calculation is obviously a little too generous as there are also vacations, training, reserve and standby (the latter three count towards the 900 block hour maximum). As a comparison, I have two friends who are Captains at LX, and they do indeed clock up between 850 and 900 hours a year, one on long haul the other on medium haul flights. They earn about the same/slightly more (depending on which exchange rate you take CHF/EUR) than the AF pilots, but life in Switzerland is even more expensive than in Paris - and they work more.

Does anyone have more information on how many hours the AF pilots do a year? The only thing I found was from 2015, and that indeed confirmed that for long haul cockpit staff they were aiming to increase block hours from an average of 685 hours to 780 hours. It would be interesting how much they are doing really.
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Old May 9, 2018, 6:51 am
  #49  
 
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Originally Posted by giancarlosil
Salaries are to be in accordance with the market, the economy of the country and the profits or losses of the company,
If I may, this is exactly what unions are saying. and because

Originally Posted by giancarlosil
clearly AF is showing red numbers.
is wrong last year (even for AF only), unions are asking for a pay raise (that they think is fair in accordance to the result), while AF management gave them (even before the strike) a raise that was in accordance to what they think was fair.

Unfortunately, pilots have been trained to "drive" a plane : anticipating the weather and the flight path : turning too soon or too late will make them miss the runway
While Top management have been trained to "drive" a company : anticipating the number of passengers based on the economy, anticipating future costs and (mainly) matching the expectations of the stakeholders..

That's 2 different jobs...
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Old May 9, 2018, 6:58 am
  #50  
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Now the CEO is even better trained than before.
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Old May 15, 2018, 5:10 am
  #51  
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So there is an interim Chairwoman: Anne Marie Couderc.
Apparently Idrac turned down the position: good news.

SHe is 68 and clearly only interim.
AT least she is not ENA, served in the French Government 20 years ago, then in media groups.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-labor-dispute
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Old May 15, 2018, 7:03 am
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Has anyone read any reactions from the employees- favorable or unfavorable? Anything as far as when they might meet to restart negotiations? I certainly hope they don't go back to striking again.
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Old May 15, 2018, 8:08 pm
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Originally Posted by casperthegm
Has anyone read any reactions from the employees- favorable or unfavorable? Anything as far as when they might meet to restart negotiations? I certainly hope they don't go back to striking again.
The Board of Directors needs a chair. That is what Couderc will be. Negotiations with AF unions are conducted by the CEO and management of Air France. Nothing has changed. The SNPL (pilots) has called for the government to intervene. You might read some of their arguments in (French):
REMUNERATION : LA RENTABILITE D'AIR FRANCE A LONG TERME | Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL)
The current situation reinforces their position.
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Old May 15, 2018, 9:01 pm
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Originally Posted by brunos
The Board of Directors needs a chair. That is what Couderc will be. Negotiations with AF unions are conducted by the CEO and management of Air France. Nothing has changed. The SNPL (pilots) has called for the government to intervene. You might read some of their arguments in (French):
REMUNERATION : LA RENTABILITE D'AIR FRANCE A LONG TERME Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL)
The current situation reinforces their position.
Does this mean that there is still a good chance of more strikes coming? I assume the answer is yes if the pilots don't get what they want.
I am only asking because we are booked with Air France beginning of July and I was hoping this might be over by then but it doesn't look like it's the end.
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Old May 16, 2018, 12:45 am
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Originally Posted by yvrcnx
Does this mean that there is still a good chance of more strikes coming? I assume the answer is yes if the pilots don't get what they want.
I am only asking because we are booked with Air France beginning of July and I was hoping this might be over by then but it doesn't look like it's the end.
The risk is there.
The situation is so complicated that I don't think that anyone can venture a guess at this point.
SNPL has a board meeting on 23 May. Maybe we will know more then.
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Old May 16, 2018, 2:03 am
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Originally Posted by brunos
The Board of Directors needs a chair. That is what Couderc will be. Negotiations with AF unions are conducted by the CEO and management of Air France. Nothing has changed. The SNPL (pilots) has called for the government to intervene. You might read some of their arguments in (French):
REMUNERATION : LA RENTABILITE D'AIR FRANCE A LONG TERME Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL)
The current situation reinforces their position.
Rough translation: "We did it guys, people understood that we strike because of the huge salary charges in France and not for our salaries. French Government, your move."
Err...
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Old May 16, 2018, 3:00 am
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The SNPL website is perfectly in line with their mind : it comes from the last century.

More seriously, it reminds me a lot of the US3 fight with ME3 : completely silly arguments/behavior to address a real issue (too much charges for AF in France regarding the competitors) ...


Idrac turned down the job because she was only offered the interim until a new CEO is appointed while she wanted to go to the end of Janaillac contract (may/june 2019). No one can says she's out forever (source : https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ac-778214.html)

Last edited by thibderoc; May 16, 2018 at 3:36 am
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Old May 16, 2018, 3:11 am
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Originally Posted by brunos
The Board of Directors needs a chair. That is what Couderc will be. Negotiations with AF unions are conducted by the CEO and management of Air France. Nothing has changed. The SNPL (pilots) has called for the government to intervene. You might read some of their arguments in (French):
REMUNERATION : LA RENTABILITE D'AIR FRANCE A LONG TERME Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL)
The current situation reinforces their position.
Thanks for sharing that document brunos. I read it (on a train...), and literally my chin fell down, by bewilderment, by amazement. I just don't know where to start. So they strike for higher salaries because they think the company pays too much in taxes and social charges? So they think that the only reason for the company's mediocre performance is taxes/charges, and not for instance lower earnings power than competitors? And don't they think that any company in any industry has to manage around external constraints such as local labour costs, tax and other government-induced cost, local regulations, etc? And what about the generous tax credit that they have received for past losses (haven't checked the latest annual report to see if they still benefit from tax credits, but I wouldn't be surprised if there still was that effect)?

And the question that bugs me the most: what exactly is the mathematics that will allow them to *improve* profitability by *increasing* wages and thus personnel cost, given that tax/charges are fix? The things I learned at school (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division) just don't get me there.

Fascinating, in so many different, if somewhat sick, ways.

Just the other day, someone asked me where I thought whether AF could disappear. I actually ended up saying "I hope so" - on the basis that as a France-based traveler I want a performant airline that offers me a good and reliable product. With AF, despite some very very significant improvements to their product, the story is still one where the periods of unreliability because of strikes are too frequent and the money to invest into keeping the product up to date is just missing (still many planes with NEV and no money to refurbish them, no money to put WiFi on board, etc). So in a way, I hope for a Swissair ending and Swiss-resurrection. Without the agony inbetween ;-)
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Old May 16, 2018, 3:13 am
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Originally Posted by thibderoc

More seriously, it reminds me a lot of the US3 fight with ME3 : completely silly arguments/behavior to address a real issue (too much charges for AF in France regarding the competitors) ...
Spot on. Both for the US3 and for pointing out that there is a real issue (charges in France).

One of the best reads in the past 2-3 years was the point-by-point rebuttal of Emirates after the US3 had published their whining pamphlet.
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Old May 16, 2018, 4:58 am
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo
One of the best reads in the past 2-3 years was the point-by-point rebuttal of Emirates after the US3 had published their whining pamphlet.
Too bad no one will dare do a rebuttal to SNPL press release, especially the last sentence where they explain that a pay raise will be the best way to prevent the other airlines to do business in France...
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