Risky itinerary

Old Apr 19, 18, 2:55 am
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Risky itinerary

I booked a ticket in Y for a cheap non refundable or changeable fare from BLL via AMS and CDG to JFK. Departure on Friday 22nd of June at 6.35PM from BLL to AMS, then a stopover. The day after early morning from AMS via CDG to JFK. So far so good.
I need to be in NCE on the 21st all day and can fly home only the day after, so June 22nd, the very same day as my trip to JFK will commence.
The cheapest option will be a return from NCE via CDG and AMS to BLL in the afternoon. The connections are tight, respectively 40 min and 50 min in CDG and AMS, plus i fly with the same aircraft to BLL that will bring me back to AMS on the 22nd.

Called KLM, the ticket is not changeable so i need to go back to BLL to commence my trip to JFK. If i dont start there, my ticket will be cancelled.

I can book a (much more) expensive ticket earlier on the day to BLL, but what if i book this ticket with the short connections and I will miss a connection? Then there is no room for alternatives and I will miss the option to commence my BLL-JFK trip.
Do you think KLM/AF will be flexible to allow me to commence my trip to JFK in the city I am stranded, either AMS or CDG?
I am Platinum so maybe a bit more credits there, but I dont want to be in a situation where i need to buy a whole new ticket to JFK because of a missed connection.

What are your thoughts?
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Old Apr 19, 18, 3:35 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
Do you think KLM/AF will be flexible to allow me to commence my trip to JFK in the city I am stranded, either AMS or CDG?
I am Platinum so maybe a bit more credits there, but I dont want to be in a situation where i need to buy a whole new ticket to JFK because of a missed connection.
no they won’t. The only solution for you is to be back in BLL on-time to start the other trip.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 4:00 am
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AF will not let you start your trip anywhere other than BLL. If you do not board at BLL the entire ticket will auto-cancel as you will be considered a no-show. You need to weigh up the cost of the more expensive flight to BLL against the risk (very high in my opinion) of something going wrong with the alternative of two very tight connections and having to buy a new return trip to JFK (at that point very expensive).
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Old Apr 19, 18, 4:12 am
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If you plan trips from remote/distant points in order to benefit from cheaper tickets, then you need to make sure you are able to get there in time....or you lose everything.

You cannot use the excuse of a "problem" on a separate ticket for failing to turn up in time to check-in for and board your flight from BLL. Even if it is the same (AFKL) company on the other ticket. The "problem" on the other ticket will only lead to compensation/rebooking on the basis of that separate ticket. That you were attempting to use it to get to BLL to start what sounds to be an even more important second ticket, is of no consequence to the airline - you are bearing all the responsibility of getting to BLL on time.

I would suggest you investigate ways of removing the "need" to be in NCE on the 21st. If you can't, you need to book the most direct ticket from NCE to BLL. When repositioning for longhaul ticket, you should not be looking at dodgy tickets (multiple connections, via strike-prone airports/airlines, etc etc).

In my case, when I book a longhaul that commences out of somewhere other than AMS/RTM or a drivable airport, I get there the night before. If the savings on offer don't justify that, then the ticket wasn't worth buying in the first place!
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Last edited by irishguy28; Apr 19, 18 at 4:18 am
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Old Apr 19, 18, 4:57 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
If you plan trips from remote/distant points in order to benefit from cheaper tickets, then you need to make sure you are able to get there in time....or you lose everything.

Thanks for your reply, but it has nothing to do with positioning. I live close to BLL, it's my home airport, so it would be strange to commence a trip from another airport except BLL?
I mean, if AFKL is not able to bring me home on time for the second trip, it'd be very customer unfriendly to show no flexibility.

But even in the case that I would purchase a early morning flight from NCE via CDG or AMS to BLL (There are no direct flights) and that one is for example cancelled or AF strikes or the aircraft is defect, then i am also in risk to be too late in BLL.

I thought that travelling from NCE via AMS to BLL would be a safe option as the exact same aircraft from AMS to BLL need to return from BLL to AMS.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 5:03 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
I thought that travelling from NCE via AMS to BLL would be a safe option as the exact same aircraft from AMS to BLL need to return from BLL to AMS.
Two things you need to consider:

1. What if the NCE-AMS is cancelled/very late? Then making AMS-BLL in endangered.

2. How is BLL for immediate turnarounds? I have no idea. Are you forced to go out or can you stay in a holding pen?
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Old Apr 19, 18, 5:55 am
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Originally Posted by LondonElite View Post
Two things you need to consider:

1. What if the NCE-AMS is cancelled/very late? Then making AMS-BLL in endangered.

2. How is BLL for immediate turnarounds? I have no idea. Are you forced to go out or can you stay in a holding pen?
1. Then I have a problem. But the same goes if i take an earlier flight, there is still risk to miss a connection.
2. BLL is small but you need to go through security again. The turn around is only 45 minutes, gate closes 15 min prior departure so I have 30 min to collect my suitcase, check in my suitcase again and go through security. The last part isnt a problem as I have fast track. But it is just enough. If the bagage belt stops working for 10 min, then i dont have enough time to collect my suitcase. I thought of hand luggage only but thats a big sacrifice.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:01 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
But even in the case that I would purchase a early morning flight from NCE via CDG or AMS to BLL (There are no direct flights) and that one is for example cancelled or AF strikes or the aircraft is defect, then i am also in risk to be too late in BLL.
You are thinking about this the wrong way.

You first of all concluded a contract with AFKL to get you from BLL to JFK. Part of your obligation under that contract is to present yourself at check-in and boarding at BLL at a certain time.

Then, you separately went and concluded a separate contract with AFKL, to get you from NCE(-CDG?)-AMS-BLL. Crucially, AFKL are not subject to the same standard of getting you to BLL at exactly the time mentioned on your ticket.

You will probably find that AFKL would not sell you the NCE(-CDG?)-AMS-BLL-AMS-JFK routing you are now attempting to travel upon. That you go and purchase this routing anyway, on a second ticket, doesn't mean that the airline must now assume any extra responsibilities to you. The way you booked this means you have an obligation, first of all, to be at NCE for check-in and boarding at a certain time; you also have an obligation to be at BLL for check-in and boarding at a certain time on the second, separate ticket. That AFKL may fail to get you to BLL in time to observe this second deadline is not their responsibility - it is entirely yours, by specifically buying this as two separate tickets. If AFKL fail to get you to BLL on time, there may arise an opportunity to claim something under EC261/2004 for the late arrival; however, any additional plans (even if with the same airline, on a separate ticket) are in no way referenced here, and you will lose the entire second ticket if you don't get yourself there on time.

There are limits to what is possible, and such a routing appears to be asking for trouble. If the airline won't sell you that exact routing on those exact flights, then you cannot plead "customer friendliness" or "flexibility". It is entirely your choice to book flights in this manner, in a way that is risky and looks likely to lead to problems. It is wrong to expect the airline to take on the responsibility for a failure in a ticket booked in a way that the airline itself wouldn't condone or sell.

I would advise you to work on getting out of your obligations in NCE and ensure you are back in BLL in good time for your ticket. As your ticket requires you to be at BLL in time to check-in and board that flight, it is entirely your responsibility to ensure that you are there. Neither AFKL, nor any other airline that you may select to get you to BLL, will have any obligation to you should you miss your BLL-JFK ticket. It is unlikely that most travel insurance policies would also cover you in this "separate ticket" scenario; but in any case, that would require you to pay out for a new ticket on the day, and attempt to claim this back later
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:34 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
You are thinking about this the wrong way.

You first of all concluded a contract with AFKL to get you from BLL to JFK. Part of your obligation under that contract is to present yourself at check-in and boarding at BLL at a certain time.

Then, you separately went and concluded a separate contract with AFKL, to get you from NCE(-CDG?)-AMS-BLL. Crucially, AFKL are not subject to the same standard of getting you to BLL at exactly the time mentioned on your ticket.

You will probably find that AFKL would not sell you the NCE(-CDG?)-AMS-BLL-AMS-JFK routing you are now attempting to travel upon. That you go and purchase this routing anyway, on a second ticket, doesn't mean that the airline must now assume any extra responsibilities to you. The way you booked this means you have an obligation, first of all, to be at NCE for check-in and boarding at a certain time; you also have an obligation to be at BLL for check-in and boarding at a certain time on the second, separate ticket. That AFKL may fail to get you to BLL in time to observe this second deadline is not their responsibility - it is entirely yours, by specifically buying this as two separate tickets. If AFKL fail to get you to BLL on time, there may arise an opportunity to claim something under EC261/2004 for the late arrival; however, any additional plans (even if with the same airline, on a separate ticket) are in no way referenced here, and you will lose the entire second ticket if you don't get yourself there on time.

There are limits to what is possible, and such a routing appears to be asking for trouble. If the airline won't sell you that exact routing on those exact flights, then you cannot plead "customer friendliness" or "flexibility". It is entirely your choice to book flights in this manner, in a way that is risky and looks likely to lead to problems. It is wrong to expect the airline to take on the responsibility for a failure in a ticket booked in a way that the airline itself wouldn't condone or sell.

I would advise you to work on getting out of your obligations in NCE and ensure you are back in BLL in good time for your ticket. As your ticket requires you to be at BLL in time to check-in and board that flight, it is entirely your responsibility to ensure that you are there. Neither AFKL, nor any other airline that you may select to get you to BLL, will have any obligation to you should you miss your BLL-JFK ticket. It is unlikely that most travel insurance policies would also cover you in this "separate ticket" scenario; but in any case, that would require you to pay out for a new ticket on the day, and attempt to claim this back later
Thanks for your extensive reply. I totally get what you are saying.

If I could choose, I wouldn't go to NCE at all but it's mandatory (work) and the New York trip is private. So i need to be in NCE on the 21st, it is just a matter of taking the best option to get back to BLL as AFKL doesn't allow changes in the JFK ticket (understandable as it's the lowest fare).

So you would advise to depart as early as possible to create more time in case of delay or cancellations? I fear strike the most actually.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:35 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
1. Then I have a problem. But the same goes if i take an earlier flight, there is still risk to miss a connection.
2. BLL is small but you need to go through security again. The turn around is only 45 minutes, gate closes 15 min prior departure so I have 30 min to collect my suitcase, check in my suitcase again and go through security. The last part isnt a problem as I have fast track. But it is just enough. If the bagage belt stops working for 10 min, then i dont have enough time to collect my suitcase. I thought of hand luggage only but thats a big sacrifice.
Doesn't baggage drop close 40 minutes before departure, i.e. most likely before your bag has even made it to the belt?
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:43 am
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Originally Posted by Solevita View Post
Doesn't baggage drop close 40 minutes before departure, i.e. most likely before your bag has even made it to the belt?
Yes that's correct so I'd be with handluggage. Or leave my luggage in AMS and pick it later up again.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:55 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
1. Then I have a problem. But the same goes if i take an earlier flight, there is still risk to miss a connection.
2. BLL is small but you need to go through security again. The turn around is only 45 minutes, gate closes 15 min prior departure so I have 30 min to collect my suitcase, check in my suitcase again and go through security. The last part isnt a problem as I have fast track. But it is just enough. If the bagage belt stops working for 10 min, then i dont have enough time to collect my suitcase. I thought of hand luggage only but thats a big sacrifice.
1. But taking an earlier and direct flight gives you more options in case something goes wrong. Ideally leave the night before.

2. This timing will not work. Check-in will be closed by the time you get your suitcase.

Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
Yes that's correct so I'd be with handluggage. Or leave my luggage in AMS and pick it later up again.
If you leave your luggage in Amsterdam (are there lockers?) you'll have to exit security and then check it in. Do you have that much time?
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Old Apr 19, 18, 7:05 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
So you would advise to depart as early as possible to create more time in case of delay or cancellations? I fear strike the most actually.
Well, you are lucky in that your flight from BLL to AMS is relatively late on the Friday, but I don't know if the following may be of use. There is a late flight from NCE to AMS on Transavia on the Thursday night (or you could even use FB miles, though at just €55 I think it makes more sense to pay cash) and perhaps you will feel better just having to get from AMS to BLL on the same day that you find yourself returning from BLL to AMS ;-)

I can't imagine your job requiring you to spend the entire night in NCE, if there's a dinner just finish early and/or tell them that you have other plans!

EDIT:: You can find other one-way options from NCE to BLL, such as Ryanair departing NCE at 21:35 with an overnight stop in London Stansted from €65 (requires two tickets).

There's also a Norwegian direct flght from NCE to CPH departing at 21:20 for just €67
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Last edited by irishguy28; Apr 19, 18 at 7:28 am
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Old Apr 19, 18, 7:28 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
Well, you are lucky in that your flight from BLL to AMS is relatively late on the Friday, but I don't know if the following may be of use. There is a late flight from NCE to AMS on Transavia on the Thursday night (or you could even use FB miles, though at just €55 I think it makes more sense to pay cash) and perhaps you will feel better just having to get from AMS to BLL on the same day that you find yourself returning from BLL to AMS ;-)

I can't imagine your job requiring you to spend the entire night in NCE, if there's a dinner just finish early and/or tell them that you have other plans!

Thanks for these options!!

Yes unfortunately my job requires me to stay until at least 2AM in NCE that night, leaving early isn't an option.
I think I'll just take an early flight from NCE via AMS to BLL with KLM on the 22nd and I avoid AF with strikes (as much as possible) and it gives me the biggest chance to make it on time. It's just a bit braindead to fly AMS-BLL-AMS just for the sake of it. But hey, it'll grand me 10 XP
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Old Apr 19, 18, 7:45 am
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Originally Posted by Thijs Luyt View Post
Yes that's correct so I'd be with handluggage. Or leave my luggage in AMS and pick it later up again.
If AMS isn't your destination and you don't have a very long connection or stopover at AMS on the ticket under which you're checking the luggage, it won't be short checked to AMS.
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