Nov 6, 2017, 3:33 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current at maximum 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).This is only applicable in the first year.
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current at maximum 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
Upcoming changes to Flying Blue in 2018
Nov 12, 2017, 10:45 am
#691
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
It might be worth having a look at what happens with US-based FFPs on this issue as this will probably give a clue as to what is likely to happen with FB.
Nov 12, 2017, 11:21 am
#692
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,520
Just what I was about to suggest (or NZ which has been doing the revenue based thing for much longer than US airlines and which I know to be one of the airlines inspiring many at AF strangely enough!
Nov 12, 2017, 1:08 pm
#693
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: flying blue
Posts: 75
I might be wrong, but as you are talking about an award ticket, there wont be any XP granted and no miles given on the cash paid part. The cash option is just a convenience proposed in the new system, but the ticket remains an award and not a revenue one. And thats why the cash part is capped at 25%.
Nov 12, 2017, 1:14 pm
#694
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
What happens for miles earning when no-show on last segment in a revenue-based progra
Nov 12, 2017, 1:41 pm
#695
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
long haul categories for XP earnings
Regarding the XP earnings, as you know for long haul flights, there are 3 sub-categories :
1- the long haul - short (2000-3500 miles) : 8, 16, 24 and 40 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
2- the long haul - medium (3500-5000 miles) : 10, 20, 30 and 50 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
3- the long haul - long (> 5000 miles) : 12, 24, 36 and 60 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
Just for your information I looked at a few key North American routes to see to which category they belong :
- CDG-YUL and BOS, respectively 3432 and 3438 miles, will belong to category 1
- CDG-JFK and YYZ, respectively 3640 and 3763 miles, will belong to category 2
- CDG-SFO, 5569 miles, will belong to category 3
I know that when you create several categories as they did, you need to put your threshold somewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous and unfair IMO to treat differently BOS from JFK for instance. They could have looked at their US destinations and set the threshold at 3400 to have all the NA east coast stations in the same category
1- the long haul - short (2000-3500 miles) : 8, 16, 24 and 40 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
2- the long haul - medium (3500-5000 miles) : 10, 20, 30 and 50 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
3- the long haul - long (> 5000 miles) : 12, 24, 36 and 60 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
Just for your information I looked at a few key North American routes to see to which category they belong :
- CDG-YUL and BOS, respectively 3432 and 3438 miles, will belong to category 1
- CDG-JFK and YYZ, respectively 3640 and 3763 miles, will belong to category 2
- CDG-SFO, 5569 miles, will belong to category 3
I know that when you create several categories as they did, you need to put your threshold somewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous and unfair IMO to treat differently BOS from JFK for instance. They could have looked at their US destinations and set the threshold at 3400 to have all the NA east coast stations in the same category
Nov 12, 2017, 2:05 pm
#696
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
But I don't think this is addressing the point raised by Meneer Guggenheimer and this is an interesting case study.
For the XPs, yes, I think it's clear, if you skip a leg, you won't earn XP for this leg. But what about the miles which now depend entirely on how much you paid and not on the distance, number of flights etc. Let's imagine an Ivory member flying a DUS-CDG-JFK and return ticket paid 500 euros round trip (taxes excluded). If he flies all the way outbound and inbound as planned, he will earn 4*500 = 2000 miles. If he drops the last leg CDG-DUS on the return trip, what happens ?
a) same miles earning ?
b) no miles at all as a kind of penalty for having dropped a leg ?
c) will they recalculate the fare based on flying DUS-CDG-JFK-CDG and ask for a (big) fare difference and then credit more miles corresponding to the newly purchased fare ?
d) will they recalculate the fare but in a "simple way" like on 500 Euros, the dropped CDG-DUS fare represent let's say 80 euros and the miles earned are recalculated as of 420*4 : 1680 miles ?
For the XPs, yes, I think it's clear, if you skip a leg, you won't earn XP for this leg. But what about the miles which now depend entirely on how much you paid and not on the distance, number of flights etc. Let's imagine an Ivory member flying a DUS-CDG-JFK and return ticket paid 500 euros round trip (taxes excluded). If he flies all the way outbound and inbound as planned, he will earn 4*500 = 2000 miles. If he drops the last leg CDG-DUS on the return trip, what happens ?
a) same miles earning ?
b) no miles at all as a kind of penalty for having dropped a leg ?
c) will they recalculate the fare based on flying DUS-CDG-JFK-CDG and ask for a (big) fare difference and then credit more miles corresponding to the newly purchased fare ?
d) will they recalculate the fare but in a "simple way" like on 500 Euros, the dropped CDG-DUS fare represent let's say 80 euros and the miles earned are recalculated as of 420*4 : 1680 miles ?
I agree. I do not see c) and d) as being on the cards (otherwise they would already do so) so it is essentially a question of a) or b). Presumably, it should be possible to have the system poll for e-ticket status and initiate the crediting only when all segments show as flown, in which case you end up with b). Alternatively, it is not inconceivable that a move to price-based crediting could also result in an immediate miles credit, moving away from the principle that you must fly for miles to be credited. Of those two, the former is probably the likeliest but who knows? You could also imagine all sorts of intermediate solutions.
It might be worth having a look at what happens with US-based FFPs on this issue as this will probably give a clue as to what is likely to happen with FB.
It might be worth having a look at what happens with US-based FFPs on this issue as this will probably give a clue as to what is likely to happen with FB.
I have just asked the question in the DL forum
What happens for miles earning when no-show on last segment in a revenue-based progra
What happens for miles earning when no-show on last segment in a revenue-based progra
Nov 12, 2017, 2:15 pm
#697
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,520
Nov 12, 2017, 2:44 pm
#698
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
Regarding the XP earnings, as you know for long haul flights, there are 3 sub-categories :
1- the long haul - short (2000-3500 miles) : 8, 16, 24 and 40 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
2- the long haul - medium (3500-5000 miles) : 10, 20, 30 and 50 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
3- the long haul - long (> 5000 miles) : 12, 24, 36 and 60 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
Just for your information I looked at a few key North American routes to see to which category they belong :
- CDG-YUL and BOS, respectively 3432 and 3438 miles, will belong to category 1
- CDG-JFK and YYZ, respectively 3640 and 3763 miles, will belong to category 2
- CDG-SFO, 5569 miles, will belong to category 3
I know that when you create several categories as they did, you need to put your threshold somewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous and unfair IMO to treat differently BOS from JFK for instance. They could have looked at their US destinations and set the threshold at 3400 to have all the NA east coast stations in the same category
1- the long haul - short (2000-3500 miles) : 8, 16, 24 and 40 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
2- the long haul - medium (3500-5000 miles) : 10, 20, 30 and 50 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
3- the long haul - long (> 5000 miles) : 12, 24, 36 and 60 XPs in Y, W, J and P, respectively.
Just for your information I looked at a few key North American routes to see to which category they belong :
- CDG-YUL and BOS, respectively 3432 and 3438 miles, will belong to category 1
- CDG-JFK and YYZ, respectively 3640 and 3763 miles, will belong to category 2
- CDG-SFO, 5569 miles, will belong to category 3
I know that when you create several categories as they did, you need to put your threshold somewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous and unfair IMO to treat differently BOS from JFK for instance. They could have looked at their US destinations and set the threshold at 3400 to have all the NA east coast stations in the same category
There could have been a similar oddity in the MEA region with TLV and AMM just over 2000 miles and BEY and CAI just under, with the paradoxical consequences that the two routes served with A320s would get more XPs than the two routes served with long-haul equipment but, in fact, all four seem to be classified as LH cat1 so it looks like common sense might be prevailing on that front.
Last edited by NickB; Nov 12, 2017 at 2:52 pm Reason: MEA destinations are all LH cat 1 and not medium as originally posted
Nov 12, 2017, 2:46 pm
#699
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
Thanks, Goldorak. Interesting, especially as DL has (or perhaps had?) a reputation for being rather strict with attempts to get round its pricing structure through hidden city ticketing, dropped segments, etc...
Nov 12, 2017, 2:47 pm
#700
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
If the Flyingblue calculator is to be believed, they do in fact award LH cat2 XPs to CDG-BOS and CDG-YUL.
There could have been a similar oddity in the MEA region with TLV and AMM just over 2000 miles and BEY and CAI just under, with the paradoxical consequences that the two routes served with A320s would get more XPs than the two routes served with long-haul equipment but, in fact, all four seem to be classified as medium so it looks like common sense might be prevailing on that front.
There could have been a similar oddity in the MEA region with TLV and AMM just over 2000 miles and BEY and CAI just under, with the paradoxical consequences that the two routes served with A320s would get more XPs than the two routes served with long-haul equipment but, in fact, all four seem to be classified as medium so it looks like common sense might be prevailing on that front.
Nov 12, 2017, 2:54 pm
#701
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
Nov 12, 2017, 3:49 pm
#702
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,063
I know that when you create several categories as they did, you need to put your threshold somewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous and unfair IMO to treat differently BOS from JFK for instance. They could have looked at their US destinations and set the threshold at 3400 to have all the NA east coast stations in the same category
Red lines are the XP thresholds from AMS, blue from CDG.
(Source for map if you want to edit).
Note: these are GCMap's idea of the distance -- they're usually the same as AFKL's idea, but sometimes AFKL fudges the numbers slightly.
From this I spot three destinations where AMS/CDG origin makes a difference: SEA (4887/5017mi), SLC (4990/5080) and PEK (4878/5103).
Last edited by CyBeR; Nov 12, 2017 at 4:05 pm Reason: Shortened URL because otherwise it won't work apparently
Nov 12, 2017, 9:36 pm
#703
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Paris, France
Programs: Flying Blue Gold
Posts: 760
Speaking from the uttermost part of the Earth...
The good part- I have long complained about the different accrual rates for each sub-class fare, as tickets from South America to Europe, even in the lowest sub-class, are quite expensive, so the new system is positive in that sense. Now with two returns from EZE to Europe on Premium Economy I am just one domestic Economy return away from keeping Silver.
The bad part- 2 XP per domestic segment is an incredible show of franco-centrisme. In any big country (and Argentina is the world's 8th largest), domestic segments easily imply distances over 1,000 km, which in Europe would get you 5 XP.
I am still not sure about my 2018 travel patterns. If I still manage to have 2 yearly trips to Europe, then I am staying. Otherwise I shall have plenty of domestic flights, and at 2 XP per segment I am switching to Aerolíneas Argentinas - not the best programme, AR Plus, but with 15 segments and 15,000 miles they make you a Skyteam Elite.
The good part- I have long complained about the different accrual rates for each sub-class fare, as tickets from South America to Europe, even in the lowest sub-class, are quite expensive, so the new system is positive in that sense. Now with two returns from EZE to Europe on Premium Economy I am just one domestic Economy return away from keeping Silver.
The bad part- 2 XP per domestic segment is an incredible show of franco-centrisme. In any big country (and Argentina is the world's 8th largest), domestic segments easily imply distances over 1,000 km, which in Europe would get you 5 XP.
I am still not sure about my 2018 travel patterns. If I still manage to have 2 yearly trips to Europe, then I am staying. Otherwise I shall have plenty of domestic flights, and at 2 XP per segment I am switching to Aerolíneas Argentinas - not the best programme, AR Plus, but with 15 segments and 15,000 miles they make you a Skyteam Elite.
Nov 12, 2017, 10:00 pm
#704
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: Flying Blue, IB, Miles and More, Delta
Posts: 112
Speaking from the uttermost part of the Earth...
The good part- I have long complained about the different accrual rates for each sub-class fare, as tickets from South America to Europe, even in the lowest sub-class, are quite expensive, so the new system is positive in that sense. Now with two returns from EZE to Europe on Premium Economy I am just one domestic Economy return away from keeping Silver.
The bad part- 2 XP per domestic segment is an incredible show of franco-centrisme. In any big country (and Argentina is the world's 8th largest), domestic segments easily imply distances over 1,000 km, which in Europe would get you 5 XP.
I am still not sure about my 2018 travel patterns. If I still manage to have 2 yearly trips to Europe, then I am staying. Otherwise I shall have plenty of domestic flights, and at 2 XP per segment I am switching to Aerolíneas Argentinas - not the best programme, AR Plus, but with 15 segments and 15,000 miles they make you a Skyteam Elite.
The good part- I have long complained about the different accrual rates for each sub-class fare, as tickets from South America to Europe, even in the lowest sub-class, are quite expensive, so the new system is positive in that sense. Now with two returns from EZE to Europe on Premium Economy I am just one domestic Economy return away from keeping Silver.
The bad part- 2 XP per domestic segment is an incredible show of franco-centrisme. In any big country (and Argentina is the world's 8th largest), domestic segments easily imply distances over 1,000 km, which in Europe would get you 5 XP.
I am still not sure about my 2018 travel patterns. If I still manage to have 2 yearly trips to Europe, then I am staying. Otherwise I shall have plenty of domestic flights, and at 2 XP per segment I am switching to Aerolíneas Argentinas - not the best programme, AR Plus, but with 15 segments and 15,000 miles they make you a Skyteam Elite.
Nov 12, 2017, 10:12 pm
#705
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: KBL
Programs: FB Gold - M&S Gold
Posts: 279