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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:33 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction

As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.

On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).

As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.

Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.

Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points

As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).

For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).

The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).

Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.

The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.

Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)

The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.

Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.

Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).

Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)

Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).

This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.

Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.

Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year

FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).

I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.

In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP). This is only applicable in the first year.

Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)

Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:27 am
  #286  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
If issued by DL, they will almost certainly have DL flightcodes, and the DL earning table applies.

However, even if there were some individual flights in there on KL- or AF- flightcodes, the fact that it was on a non AFKL ticket stock would, I think, mean that they use the "old" AF/KL table to determine earning on that flight. (They would not be able to break down the earning for just that constituent flight, and would not give you the entire earning based on the total ticket price for that one flight).
Thank you, that would have been my assumption too. I guess we'll have to try and see, so in some cases it might be more valuable to book through Delta rather than AF or vice versa.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:27 am
  #287  
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I think that the complaints regarding domestic US flights are a bit optimistic to be honest. Yes, sure, a domestic US flight could be a really long JFK-HNL on DL for which the reward sounds minimal, yet it could also be a Savannah-ATL-Charlottesville for which it would be rather generous. Ultimately, FB expect that US-based members would go with Skymiles (and I think that this is generally true apart from those who are joining FB to avoid the revenue-based SM programme) just like DL expect European-based members to typically go with FB so US domestics would only be a marginal consideration for FB as it would typically not affect their members much and there is no reason for them to go through the bother of differentiating between different types of US or Chinese domestic flights.

For what it's worth, I think some people travelling on full fare domestic flights within France are probably going to create more issues than the status credit downgrade of people flying JFK-LAS and the likes.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:29 am
  #288  
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Originally Posted by jimmygottfredson
These categories are not meaningless. A classic award can be redeemed by partner programs.
That's not an FB issue. How and whether seats are opened up to other programmes doesn't require that FB can't dismiss "Classic" and "Flex" awards. Stated another way - it is not an unbreakable rule that FB *must* maintain "Classic Awards" in order for partners to offer seats on AFKL to their adherents.

Originally Posted by jimmygottfredson
A Flex award for ELITES can only be redeemed by Flying Blue elites.
I don't believe there is such a thing anymore. See the table reproduced below.

(Admittedly, La Première awards can only be booked by FB Elites).

Originally Posted by jimmygottfredson
The number of classic awards is far less than Flex awards ... and is one of the reasons I was considering joining and participating in Flying Blue.
I'm not sure that's currently correct. There was a time when there was a fixed mileage amount for classic awards, and a fixed mileage amount for Flex awards, and when they were gone, they were gone.

Then they moved to a more flexible pricing scheme - at least for Classic Awards - where the advertised price is a "starting from" amount, and can vary quite substantially. I believe that the number of Classic Awards made available is still more than the number of Flex Awards (if only because, for any sane person, booking a Flex Award should be an exceptional event).

Originally Posted by jimmygottfredson
If all awards are available to partner programs going forward, I think many flyers would choose to fly AF/KLM through partner redemptions. Is there any word if Classic and Flex awards will be preserved in the new scheme?
The whole concept of redemptions is changing. Every seat can be redeemed, whether as mileage only, or as cash and miles.

The concept of "Classic" and "Flex" may have been an issue, or a handy "label", for the partners to use in deciding which of the available seats to make available to their own adherents, but FB is moving on. If and whether the partners make - or are given - the same type of availability as is presently the case, is not something that will be of primary concern to FB. They are moving to a much more flexible pricing scheme; the old "logic" that a Skymiles (or whoever) must first find a seat at the lowest "Classic" amount on the FB site, and should then expect to be able to find this - and only this - seat via Skymiles doesn't have to remain intact. Especially given that so much has already changed over the years...
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Last edited by irishguy28; Nov 6, 2017 at 11:34 am
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:30 am
  #289  
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
As per JOYU31 post, which I believe is straight notes from the live event, points now roll over even on downgrade. I can imagine the points only die on Ivory now - or indeed, not at all - giving people a chance to be silver for a year once in a while. Why not.
Which post is that?
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:32 am
  #290  
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
I think that the complaints regarding domestic US flights are a bit optimistic to be honest. Yes, sure, a domestic US flight could be a really long JFK-HNL on DL for which the reward sounds minimal,
Only if DL takes over that route from Hawaiian!
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:34 am
  #291  
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
As per JOYU31 post, which I believe is straight notes from the live event, points now roll over even on downgrade.
These were indeed straight notes from the event, and this point was stressed.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:37 am
  #292  
 
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
Which post is that?
#4
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:37 am
  #293  
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Originally Posted by JOUY31
These were indeed straight notes from the event, and this point was stressed.
And I had thought I read every post.

Can you re-post the comment, or link to the original post inthis thread?

Thanks.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:37 am
  #294  
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Originally Posted by wuzziduzziman
Whoah!!! What a mess
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:37 am
  #295  
 
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Ah that post has been updated a lot since this thread started. Interesting, indeed. Did they say anything about XP for ivory members resetting?
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:38 am
  #296  
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So here it is again.

Sneaky, to edit it hours after posting the original!!!

Originally Posted by JOUY31
TOPICS
1) Mileage
2) Status-
3) Benefits

Mileage earning from April 2018
1 EURO spent (excluding taxes but including options) on AF, KL, HOP! and Joon (85% of current mileage earning)
- 4 miles for Ivory
- 6 miles for Silver
- 7 miles for Gold
- 8 miles for Platinum

for other airlines, without access to the amount paid, current rules remain unchanged

Mileage spending from June 2018 (all airlines previously mentioned + Transavia)
- currently, there is a limit on award seats
- from June 2018,
. any seat available for sale is available for an award, at different rates of course
. multiple price points for awards
. more combinations of cash&miles awards - up to 25% in cash

Status earning
- based on experience points
- qualification period: 12 months for new members
- rollover of experience points, even in the case of a status downgrade
- soft landing in every case
- Platinum for life unchanged
- for any eligible segment (SkyTeam+ HOP! ...), experience points are earned
- levels
100 points needed to reach Silver
180 points needed when Silver, to reach Gold
300 points neededwhen Gold, to reach Platinum
- experience points earning based on a multiplier of distance in miles and cabin flown
- conversion rate in place for level miles to experience points on April 1st

Distance Points earned
in miles in Economy
< 2,000 2
< 3,500 4
< 5,000 6
> 5,000 10


Multiplier by cabin:
Premium Economy: 2
Business: 3
First: 5

For Abonnés, there is a x2 multiplier exclusively for French domestic flights.

Benefits
- currently unchanged
- future evolution for greater flexibility (choice benefits ?)
and personalization

Q&A
- over 31 million members have experienced an aspect of Flying Blue since its inception
- 15 million members are currently "qualified" customers who are tracked and will receive
the update to the program
- 90% of members are Ivory
- expectations that the volume of miles given by AF/KL each year remains unchanged, with a slight increase to take option into account
- mileage redemption
80%-90% of miles redeemed are spent on airline tickets
miles redeemed represent, each day, 3 long-haul flights, round trip
400,000 award tickets redeemed per year
- Investment on the program development, until today: 15M€ on the IT back-end systems
- Next step: invest on the front-end and digital experience
- Goal: become the preferred European airline customer loyalty program in 2020, up from the current TOP 5 or TOP 3
- Goal: increase by 15% the revenue derived from the Flying Blue customers
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:40 am
  #297  
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Originally Posted by JOUY
- rollover of experience points, even in the case of a status downgrade
That is a small consolation, but overall doesn't make up for the fact that, when you are climbing, you have to earn ALL of the XPs separately; it would have been far better to allow the "rollover" in the case of a status upgrade - because THAT was how the current system worked.

And, besides, for this "rollover" to occur, you would have had to have earned enough XPs in order to get the "soft-landing" level anyway. If you didn't - then they surely won't rollover, because you didn't earn enough in the year to get it.

(So basically, the rollover is given only where justified. It's not a blanket rollover on downgrade. You either get a soft-landing - or you just earn that anyway, and get whatever you were over that level back as a rollover. In short, if you didn't need the softlanding, you get the excess XPs back now)

Originally Posted by JOUY
Q&A
- over 31 million members have experienced an aspect of Flying Blue since its inception
- 15 million members are currently "qualified" customers who are tracked and will receive
So, basically 16 million of the 31 million accounts are currently considered dormant/non-active/expired.

I expect that number to accelerate in the coming years!!

Last edited by irishguy28; Nov 6, 2017 at 11:46 am
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:42 am
  #298  
 
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Lots of comments suggesting re qualifying for existing status is unchanged but not necessarily the case. I tend to qualify for either gold or silver on miles depending on the year and I'm going to have a harder time doing that.

Most of my tickets are B/M/U which were earning healthy 100% level miles in old system but now earn same as 25% economy tickets. In one year i crossed the 25K level miles for silver with 8 long haul economy segments and by my calculations now, those same 8 flights will get me 72XP - less than needed for silver. Looking at my trips last year, flights that got me to gold will now have me only about 60% of the way to 180XP. Might be time to figure out a new ffp to use.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:49 am
  #299  
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Originally Posted by rfrn

Most of my tickets are B/M/U which were earning healthy 100% level miles in old system but now earn same as 25% economy tickets..
Indeed, there is no benefit in buying expensive economy tickets any more, as regards status qualification.

FB wants you to buy the cheapest possible ticket in any chosen cabin. If you choose economy, they are encouraging you to book with a Skyteam partner, not with AFKL, as you will more likely earn more Miles there (of course, depending on the partner, you may not earn Miles and presumably therefore also not earn XPs on the cheapest tickets - so maybe FB wants you to opt for the more expensive economy classes only when you travel on a partner, rather than on AFKL). That is the only way to understand this change.

AFKL still seem to think that this will increase the revenue earned from FB members. They clearly haven't looked at the new scheme!!!! Or the "engineers" someone accused earlier of designing the system have hoodwinked the suits in marketing
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 11:51 am
  #300  
 
Join Date: May 2009
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
Indeed, there is no benefit in buying expensive economy tickets any more, as regards status qualification.

FB wants you to buy the cheapest possible ticket in any chosen cabin.
It's less that (obviously) and more that they are choosing to accept the reality that people buying fares that aren't the cheapest are a *very* small minority, and those people are doing that not because of loyalty but because they lack choice anyway. It is, in other words, not a market they're trying to bind to AFKL (in the sense that they already are.)

It's very clear what FB wants to reward with this new scheme: premium cabin travel.

Last edited by CyBeR; Nov 6, 2017 at 11:57 am
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