AZ to end AF/KL partnership from january 2017

Old Dec 9, 16, 5:06 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
Are you saying that this is as an indirect result of DL dallying in two separate Joint Ventures?

Or are VS and AF somehow at fault, despite having an interline agreement?
There has been so much negotiation going on (DL/VS, AFKL, DOT, EU), that it is hard to assign "fault". The rumor is that there have been a lot of threats and carrots from the airlines as well as huge lawyer bills.
But it is likely that it be an AFKL requirement.
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Old Dec 9, 16, 6:20 am
  #92  
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Originally Posted by SEA-Flyer View Post
Yeah, they've still selling tickets. But the tickets aren't really equivalent.
Let us not get confused. The range of tickets themselves has not changed in the slightest. The schedules have.

I don't mind that DL moved the aircraft. I'd be perfectly happy to fly VS and/or AF. But I can't.
Of course, you DO mind because the moving of the aircraft means that DL no longer fly the route and therefore the itinerary is no longer available to you. Conversely, it may be that someone elsewhere who used to be unable to get an itinerary involving a JV partner because the route was operated by VS will now be able to,

Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
VS and AF do interline. It's what is required to issue even an award ticket that covers both.
AIUI, not necessarily if the ticket is issued by a third party. In any event, if you really want every single I dotted and T crossed 'just in case', AF and VS do not interline on commercial fares, at any rate not on SEA-PAR itineraries (I do not think that they have any commercial fare allowing any interlining on any route but let us be conservative)

Originally Posted by brunos View Post
That's correct.
AF and VS did have a general ticket interline agreement as most legacy airlines do. I remember a few years back buying a CDG-LHR-LAX return ticket in Business at an attractive discount price on VS, where the first and last legs were operated by AF (CDG-LHR-CDG). This interline agreement is probably still valid.
An abstract interline agreement is meaningless without fares to which it apply. AFAIK, VS and AF do not interline at all on any commercial fare. They do not even on HKG-PAR, for instance, where there is no JV issue whatsoever.
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Old Dec 9, 16, 6:34 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
Quod erat demonstrandum.
No, that is not what needed to be demonstrated. What needed to be demonstrated for your assertion to be true was not that one individual in one particular situation is negatively affected but that JVs generally affect individuals negatively. This is still demonstrandum as of now.

Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
Are you saying that this is as an indirect result of DL dallying in two separate Joint Ventures?
Where does this notion come from that just because an airline participates in two different JVs, those JVs need to be merged?

VS does not participate in any alliance. They do not participate in any JV other than the one with their parent company. The JV with VS is designed to serve the UK market. VS is not interested at all in the tatl market in general, just the US-UK market. There are pretty good reasons for that. A quick look at VS route network will indicate why. The members of the ST JV are all network carriers with a propensity to serve the wider European market.

One does not need to be a genius to realise that it might not make a huge amount of sense for VS not to be part of the wider JV. One does not need to invoke theories of Machiavellian plotting and scheming by DL to explain why the two JVs are kept separate.

Would it benefit consumers for the two JVs to be joined? Perhaps. It would certainly benefit SEA-Flyer. But even if it is the case that it would benefit consumers as a whole for the two JVs to be merged, it does not follow from this that JVs are anti-consumer. This is an archetypal non-sequitur if there ever was one.

are VS and AF somehow at fault, despite having an interline agreement?
If VS and AF really wanted VS to provide through itineraries on each other, this would have been negotiated. It is not a question of "fault" on anybody's part. Apart from some very specific circumstances that do not apply here, there is no duty on any airline to conclude an agreement with another airline.

Last edited by NickB; Dec 9, 16 at 6:39 am
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Old Dec 9, 16, 8:30 am
  #94  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Where does this notion come from that just because an airline participates in two different JVs, those JVs need to be merged?
Of course there is no requirement that they should be merged. The overlapping JVs would not have been sanctioned if they had not received clearance (which I maintain was a mistake).

But the initial "notion" was that AFKL would be involved in the purchase of VS, if only to overcome the EU ownership rules that Delta were restricted by.

The initial plan was also that VS would possibly join Skyteam and seek to enter the JV as AZ had done a few years previously.

But Delta clearly had second thoughts about the whole thing, and further cannily sought and obtained anti-trust immunisation for an overlapping set/subset of routes for which an existing arrangement - albeit with different members - was already in force, and which, in my opinion, Delta should have been confined.

The airlines love to crow about the benefits to customers when this is a by-product of their own self-interest. But in this case, AFKL (and AZ) were cut out of the action and effectively set up a competing alliance. Which would be great for the customer but by apparently restricting what tickets they actually offer for sale, they are restricting customer choice and competition.

It's probably good for Delta that I am not on a competition committee!

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
VS does not participate in any alliance. They do not participate in any JV other than the one with their parent company. The JV with VS is designed to serve the UK market. VS is not interested at all in the tatl market in general, just the US-UK market. There are pretty good reasons for that. A quick look at VS route network will indicate why. The members of the ST JV are all network carriers with a propensity to serve the wider European market.
None of which is relevant as Delta is the offending party.

But VS is a strange beast anyway.

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
One does not need to be a genius to realise that it might not make a huge amount of sense for VS not to be part of the wider JV. One does not need to invoke theories of Machiavellian plotting and scheming by DL to explain why the two JVs are kept separate.
But the point is that DL already had a JV covering UK-US.
That they were allowed to carve out a second such joint venture, to me, is anti-competitive.

Does DL/VS compete with fares offered by DL/AF/KL/AZ? Probably not. Which would indicate that Delta can operate as if it has a single immunised agreement - although it doesn't - and not extend to its customers (and those of the various partners) any benefits that flow from that.

DL basically, to borrow a phrase much in vogue in the UK these days, wants to have its cake and eat it.

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Would it benefit consumers for the two JVs to be joined? Perhaps. It would certainly benefit SEA-Flyer. But even if it is the case that it would benefit consumers as a whole for the two JVs to be merged, it does not follow from this that JVs are anti-consumer. This is an archetypal non-sequitur if there ever was one.
Reciprocal FFP privileges, lounge access, greater numbers of departures/possible itineraries would accrue to the partners' customers. But DL customers benefit from both networks, so why would they care about their "partners"? Because it would mean they have to share a greater amount with their partners.

So DL's intersection within both alliances gives its customers greater choice and benefits than accrue to the customers of its partners, despite the huge overlap between Delta's agreements.

If Delta wasn't happy for its partners' customers to benefit in such ways, then I don't think that Delta's customers should benefit.

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
If VS and AF really wanted VS to provide through itineraries on each other, this would have been negotiated. It is not a question of "fault" on anybody's part. Apart from some very specific circumstances that do not apply here, there is no duty on any airline to conclude an agreement with another airline.
This thread has mentioned Alitalia's desire to run new services. It can't, because its partners don't want to agree.

AF and VS can't do much as anything more than they already have - an interline agreement - would probably need government clearance. They cannot work within the scope of the existing agreements, because Delta reneged on its early thoughts of integrating VS into the existing arrangement.

But I am unclear what sort of agreement, short of this clearly unlikely JV. And as you say, VS doesn't want European feed as it never tried to replace the feed that BD used to feed it.
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Old Dec 9, 16, 9:14 am
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AF-KL back at MXP?

[@Moderators: please feel free to merge this thread with http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-f...ry-2017-a.html should you consider the latter more appropriate territory to discuss the above]

According to an Italian web-only newspaper, both AF and KL could re-start services from MXP as early as January 14th, even though this move (reportedly supported by a slot request) would only concern the first morning flights to CDG and AMS at [respectively] 7:40AM and 6:30AM. The soon-to-end partnership with AZ currently allows both AF and KL to exploits a number of slots at the other airport, LIN, resulting in a significant number of services to and from their hubs.

G
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Old Dec 9, 16, 9:31 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post

An abstract interline agreement is meaningless without fares to which it apply. AFAIK, VS and AF do not interline at all on any commercial fare. They do not even on HKG-PAR, for instance, where there is no JV issue whatsoever.
We are not in disagreement.
An interline agreement is just a generic agreement that allows a TA to include the two airlines on the same ticket. I apologize for trying here to use layman terms, not legalese, and my terms might be imprecise. Please be tolerant.
This is a simple commercial agreement that needs no government approval. Of course, the practical issue is what fares the system will offer, if any, on some combined itinerary. And now there are none loaded or simply IATA full fare.
As I mentioned before, VS offered reasonably-attractive fares in J to France, including to/from HKG where I am based (connection in LHR could be BA or AF). That has been discontinued since the DL/VS JV. It could be that the agreement simply prohibits any DL/VS ticketing to/from Europe when transiting in UK.
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Old Dec 10, 16, 2:44 pm
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It seems Alitalia's situation is far more precarious than any of us thought; at Monday's board meeting they may be pleased to see a rapid improvement in their revenues...until they realise the shenanigans this weekend that caused the flood of cash to flow into Alitalia's coffers.

The article also mentions the possibility of AFKL's slots at LIN reverting back to their actual owner, AZ, should all the negotiations surrounding AZ go badly.

So maybe AFKL are just letting nothing to chance...

Originally Posted by Il Giornale



I nodi principali da sciogliere, preliminari al nuovo piano industriale, riguardano le alleanze, quella con Air France-Klm, che scade il 13 gennaio, e quella Atlantica, con Air France, Klm e Delta, in scadenza nel 2022. Alitalia nella seconda è penalizzata, perchè essendo stata negoziata in condizioni di debolezza, non permette alla compagnia di giocare alla pari. La divisione dei ricavi infatti avviene secondo il «ferro», cioè gli aerei, messi a disposizione delle rotte in comune. Alitalia ne ha meno degli altri e incassa di meno (il 15% circa). Rinegoziare le quote non è facile, ma è quello che si cerca di fare, per avere più peso e aumentare i profitti. Così rientrano nelle discussioni gli altri accordi con Air France, con cui vengono operati in stretta collaborazione i collegamenti Italia-Francia. Se rottura dovesse esserci, Air France-Klm perderebbe un consistente numero di slot a Linate, prestati da Alitalia, che ne tornerebbe in possesso. Quegli slot valgono molto, perchè permettono alle compagnie di alimentare i propri hub di Parigi e Amsterdam; Alitalia potrebbe rinnovare i patti su Linate purchè cambi l'alleanza Atlantica, su cui AF e Klm hanno voce in capitolo.

Last edited by irishguy28; Dec 10, 16 at 2:51 pm
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Old Dec 10, 16, 3:58 pm
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By shenanigans, you mind the absurd fare from Florence to Dusseldorf via anywhere except Atlantis being discussed over in the Premium Mileage deals forum? I would have thought that might risk finally bankrupting them!
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Old Dec 11, 16, 4:18 am
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I hope AF/KL will stay at LIN because MXP is so far from Milan city center
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Old Dec 11, 16, 6:24 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
It seems Alitalia's situation is far more precarious than any of us thought; at Monday's board meeting they may be pleased to see a rapid improvement in their revenues...until they realise the shenanigans this weekend that caused the flood of cash to flow into Alitalia's coffers.
All flights more than 2 weeks out can be canceled by them without penalty as far as I know. In the meantime they got a whole lot of cash that can they hold on to for months before refunding. The fact that this deal lasts sooo long almost implies that it is intentional..
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Old Dec 11, 16, 6:49 am
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A sort of "crowdsourced" emergency loan, eh?

It certainly is an intriguing idea
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Old Dec 11, 16, 7:23 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
A sort of "crowdsourced" emergency loan, eh?

It certainly is an intriguing idea
Very good
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Old Dec 11, 16, 8:27 am
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Originally Posted by brunos View Post
Very good
I hope it's not, though. One of my tickets is to your neck of the woods - Hong Kong!
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Old Dec 11, 16, 1:07 pm
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
The article also mentions the possibility of AFKL's slots at LIN reverting back to their actual owner, AZ, should all the negotiations surrounding AZ go badly.
How many slots belong to AZ ? I think AF owns some. Because they were serving LIN long before the AZ deal or even Skyteam ?
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Old Dec 11, 16, 1:48 pm
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I don't know - perhaps all of them?

AF and AZ have beenco-operating for far longer than any of the current arrangements and it would be a rather strange slot-lease deal if it was for perpetuity.

The accuracy/thoroughness of the reporting leaves lots to be desired!

Originally Posted by Les Echos
Les discussions avec les Français auraient achoppé sur la question des créneaux horaires à l'aéroport de Milan-Linate, actuellement utilisés par Air France et KLM pour desservir Paris et Amsterdam et alimenter leurs vols transatlantiques, et qu'Alitalia voudrait récupérer pour lancer ses propres vols transatlantiques.
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