AlicorporateUK

My personal take on this one is that AZ simply can't afford to leave, mainly considering its limited network (which has been shrinking significantly since the airline's decision to leave Milan MXP and base most of its aircraft at Rome FCO, leaning towards an overall unprofitable short/medium haul model) and moreover assuming that a good deal of revenue feeds from the JV itself. Even with an improved capacity in terms of long-haul operations (which I can't really see, at least for the time being), AZ would still benefit (in all respects) from being part of a wider group. Let's not even mention that EY's plan for AZ has so far been a disaster, with the Italian carrier losing scary figures of money and with rumours strongly insinuating that at least 15 aircraft (319/320) could soon be parked somewhere for good.

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fifty_two

Havent seen this thread before , but it makes sense and now i understand why i dont see AZ flights in the KL website anymore , same thing for codeshares AF/AZ between CDG and FCO

I guess they were expecting too much from EY as a savior , just like AB did . I guess the only one which is doing well from EY partners is JU (from what i know)

How are you ? You are not coming to waw anymore ?

irishguy28

And AF-KL was never really going to be that group.

AZ long resisted falling further into AFKL's clutches, as it was clear to all that it would be reduced ever more towards being a mere feeder for AF at Paris.

AlicorporateUK

Cześć! U mnie super, dzięki. I'm still coming down quite often yet only briefly nowadays (just to check the house is running okay really); mostly based in Gdańsk now but commuting, as usual, PL-UK-PL That said, I may be coming down for a couple of days before Christmas so I'll send you a message in case you're about and up for a pint or two ^

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Goldorak

I still see AF/AZ code-shares to FCO next year on AF app. I didn't check other destinations.

brunos

Indeed, they both show for KL exAMS and AF exCDG.

AlicorporateUK

I've just noticed on the AZ website that, whilst it seems that most codeshares code/numbers against IT-FR flights operated by both airlines are still in place, there are however a number of destinations (I've just tried to simulate a BHX-FCO) which can no longer be booked through alitalia.com (this was indeed the case until recently and it was even quite common to find better tariffs compared to AF/KL websites).

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fifty_two

Me too , even if fco-cdg is still available under codeshares , other cases like waw-fco-cdg are 100% AZ

Prices are higher than it used to be , or even when they offer good prices you need to buy at least one month before and fly during weekdays


Ok , so it is still available for fco-cdg as P2P, i wanted to buy ticket from poland to france for december/january , usually there are a lot of options for the fco-cdg segment but not anymore , only the 3 AZ flights available

good , let me know when you can , and if iam not working during the nights we can do it

Goldorak

An article today in La Tribune about this subject:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...ue-622948.html

no scoop in it. Confirmation of the end of the current partnership end 2016, but discussions are on-going to find a new way of partnering...
Mention that in case the discussions would fail, the future of AZ in the transatlantic JV could be uncertain. Also mention that discussions continue between AF/KL and DL about VS and the JVs.

irishguy28

AZ doesn't have a friend in Skyteam, and never did.

They should be bold and exit the JV which also would mean leaving the alliance. They can forge bilateral deals with airlines as and where necessary. And the brake on their transatlantic expansion - which they have been complaining about for some time - would be removed by leaving.

AlicorporateUK

According to various reports on the Italian press (and also a recent statement from the chairman), the JV is somehow preventing AZ to operate LAX all-year round and (re)launch a number of other services (SFO got mentioned).

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flyerCO

As a DL DM, I would love VS to become part of Skyteam or at least enter into full JV with AF/KLM. Right now it sucks. I can get a lot of times better flight times even with a double connect through LHR and onwards through CDG/AMS then going straight to CDG/AMS. However that can only currently be done on separate fares due to JV. One to LHR and one from LHR onward and vice-a-versa.

irishguy28

That is no mystery!

The joint venture means that all 4 airlines (DL/AF/KL/AZ) operate as one -sharing all costs, revenues, planning, etc - so AZ as by far the junior partner can't sway things their way.

It seems that the Etihad folks, in particular, are keen to see Alitalia expand on transatlantic services. But they need DL/KL/AF to all sign off on this and they simply don't want to listen to AZ.

Of course, a lot of this could just be noise...does being able to run flights across the Atlantic without requiring the approval, and revenue-sharing, of the JV partners really warrant breaking out of the alliance? It may be that AZ no longer feels that the sum total of all the benefits it gets from alliance membership outweigh the negatives or lost opportunities. As regards feed, most of the airlines prefer to acept feed from AZ for their long haul flights, while only feeding to AZ for its shorthaul network. I think there may be quite an imbalance there, and that they may be justified in breaking free.

But even on a more fundamental level, the relationship is somewhat dysfunctional - as you will know from travelling on AF/AZ or KL/AZ tickets.

I just checked in, with KLM, for an Alitalia-coded KL flight. Despite being Freccia Alata, KLM never allowed me to select a seat, even when I got the ladies at the Flying Blue desk in the Crown Lounge at Schiphol on the case (I gave up when, after giving the lady the required half an hour to ring around and try to find how to select a seat for me, the upshot was that I would have to pay €20 to select a seat). At check-in earlier this morning, no seat selection was possible - they just dumped me in a seat (luckily not a middle seat, and luckily not too far back).

They were also "unable to determine your baggage allowance", although they did at least recognise that my boarding pass deserved a SkyPriority red flash.

irishguy28

Well, it will continue to suck.

VS has no intention of joining Skyteam. And neither VS nor DL have any intention of sharing the lucrative UK-US spoils with their continental "partners" by including them in that particular JV.

Besides, DL pax that want to travel to the European mainland are adequately catered for via AMS, CDG, FCO and MXP. There is no requirement to add the non-Skyteam hub of LHR into that mix -which, as you point out, would add an extra unnecessary stop for all European mainland-bound traffic.

AlicorporateUK

Great post, totally agree. Amongst the main causes contributing to AZ [financial] misfortunes, the confined long-haul network (which has been shrinking further over the years and since the airline decided to abandon MXP) plays a predominant role, hence if you are in a position where your expansion plans are somehow curbed by long-standing agreements, then no wonder why AZ is re-considering their options. It is painfully obvious that, in a market which is highly influenced by fierce competitions from low-cost carriers (and to such great extent), a network which concentrates mostly on short and medium haul is simply recipe for disaster.

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