AZ to end AF/KL partnership from january 2017

Old Nov 13, 16, 4:27 am
  #61  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,091
My personal take on this one is that AZ simply can't afford to leave, mainly considering its limited network (which has been shrinking significantly since the airline's decision to leave Milan MXP and base most of its aircraft at Rome FCO, leaning towards an overall unprofitable short/medium haul model) and moreover assuming that a good deal of revenue feeds from the JV itself. Even with an improved capacity in terms of long-haul operations (which I can't really see, at least for the time being), AZ would still benefit (in all respects) from being part of a wider group. Let's not even mention that EY's plan for AZ has so far been a disaster, with the Italian carrier losing scary figures of money and with rumours strongly insinuating that at least 15 aircraft (319/320) could soon be parked somewhere for good.

G
AlicorporateUK is offline  
Old Nov 14, 16, 10:14 am
  #62  
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Warsaw/Berlin
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum / Accor ALL Gold
Posts: 1,198
Havent seen this thread before , but it makes sense and now i understand why i dont see AZ flights in the KL website anymore , same thing for codeshares AF/AZ between CDG and FCO

Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
EY's plan for AZ has so far been a disaster,
I guess they were expecting too much from EY as a savior , just like AB did . I guess the only one which is doing well from EY partners is JU (from what i know)

Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
G
How are you ? You are not coming to waw anymore ?

Last edited by fifty_two; Nov 14, 16 at 10:20 am
fifty_two is offline  
Old Nov 14, 16, 10:54 am
  #63  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: Platinum: KL Gold: A3 Rust: BA
Posts: 25,361
Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
AZ would still benefit (in all respects) from being part of a wider group.
And AF-KL was never really going to be that group.

AZ long resisted falling further into AFKL's clutches, as it was clear to all that it would be reduced ever more towards being a mere feeder for AF at Paris.
irishguy28 is offline  
Old Nov 14, 16, 1:18 pm
  #64  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by fifty_two View Post
How are you ? You are not coming to waw anymore ?
Cześć! U mnie super, dzięki. I'm still coming down quite often yet only briefly nowadays (just to check the house is running okay really); mostly based in Gdańsk now but commuting, as usual, PL-UK-PL That said, I may be coming down for a couple of days before Christmas so I'll send you a message in case you're about and up for a pint or two ^

G
AlicorporateUK is offline  
Old Nov 14, 16, 9:53 pm
  #65  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Accor 25+ Badge
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 15,965
Originally Posted by fifty_two View Post
Havent seen this thread before , but it makes sense and now i understand why i dont see AZ flights in the KL website anymore , same thing for codeshares AF/AZ between CDG and FCO
I still see AF/AZ code-shares to FCO next year on AF app. I didn't check other destinations.
Goldorak is offline  
Old Nov 15, 16, 1:15 am
  #66  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: FB AF Silver, BA Gold
Posts: 12,908
Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
I still see AF/AZ code-shares to FCO next year on AF app. I didn't check other destinations.
Indeed, they both show for KL exAMS and AF exCDG.
brunos is offline  
Old Nov 15, 16, 4:57 am
  #67  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,091
I've just noticed on the AZ website that, whilst it seems that most codeshares code/numbers against IT-FR flights operated by both airlines are still in place, there are however a number of destinations (I've just tried to simulate a BHX-FCO) which can no longer be booked through alitalia.com (this was indeed the case until recently and it was even quite common to find better tariffs compared to AF/KL websites).

G
AlicorporateUK is offline  
Old Nov 15, 16, 4:53 pm
  #68  
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Warsaw/Berlin
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum / Accor ALL Gold
Posts: 1,198
Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
most codeshares code/numbers against IT-FR flights operated by both airlines are still in place, there are however a number of destinations (I've just tried to simulate a BHX-FCO) which can no longer be booked through alitalia.com
G
Me too , even if fco-cdg is still available under codeshares , other cases like waw-fco-cdg are 100% AZ

Prices are higher than it used to be , or even when they offer good prices you need to buy at least one month before and fly during weekdays


Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
I still see AF/AZ code-shares to FCO next year on AF app. I didn't check other destinations.
Ok , so it is still available for fco-cdg as P2P, i wanted to buy ticket from poland to france for december/january , usually there are a lot of options for the fco-cdg segment but not anymore , only the 3 AZ flights available

Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
Cześć! U mnie super, dzięki. I'm still coming down quite often yet only briefly nowadays (just to check the house is running okay really); mostly based in Gdańsk now but commuting, as usual, PL-UK-PL That said, I may be coming down for a couple of days before Christmas so I'll send you a message in case you're about and up for a pint or two ^

G
good , let me know when you can , and if iam not working during the nights we can do it

Last edited by fifty_two; Nov 15, 16 at 5:17 pm
fifty_two is offline  
Old Dec 7, 16, 4:02 pm
  #69  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Accor 25+ Badge
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 15,965
An article today in La Tribune about this subject:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...ue-622948.html

no scoop in it. Confirmation of the end of the current partnership end 2016, but discussions are on-going to find a new way of partnering...
Mention that in case the discussions would fail, the future of AZ in the transatlantic JV could be uncertain. Also mention that discussions continue between AF/KL and DL about VS and the JVs.
Goldorak is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 2:22 am
  #70  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: Platinum: KL Gold: A3 Rust: BA
Posts: 25,361
AZ doesn't have a friend in Skyteam, and never did.

They should be bold and exit the JV which also would mean leaving the alliance. They can forge bilateral deals with airlines as and where necessary. And the brake on their transatlantic expansion - which they have been complaining about for some time - would be removed by leaving.
irishguy28 is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 3:24 am
  #71  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
AZ doesn't have a friend in Skyteam, and never did.

They should be bold and exit the JV which also would mean leaving the alliance. They can forge bilateral deals with airlines as and where necessary. And the brake on their transatlantic expansion - which they have been complaining about for some time - would be removed by leaving.
According to various reports on the Italian press (and also a recent statement from the chairman), the JV is somehow preventing AZ to operate LAX all-year round and (re)launch a number of other services (SFO got mentioned).

G
AlicorporateUK is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 5:29 am
  #72  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Hilton Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 18,820
Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
An article today in La Tribune about this subject:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...ue-622948.html

no scoop in it. Confirmation of the end of the current partnership end 2016, but discussions are on-going to find a new way of partnering...
Mention that in case the discussions would fail, the future of AZ in the transatlantic JV could be uncertain. Also mention that discussions continue between AF/KL and DL about VS and the JVs.
As a DL DM, I would love VS to become part of Skyteam or at least enter into full JV with AF/KLM. Right now it sucks. I can get a lot of times better flight times even with a double connect through LHR and onwards through CDG/AMS then going straight to CDG/AMS. However that can only currently be done on separate fares due to JV. One to LHR and one from LHR onward and vice-a-versa.
flyerCO is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 5:37 am
  #73  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: Platinum: KL Gold: A3 Rust: BA
Posts: 25,361
Originally Posted by AlicorporateUK View Post
According to various reports on the Italian press (and also a recent statement from the chairman), the JV is somehow preventing AZ to operate LAX all-year round and (re)launch a number of other services (SFO got mentioned).

G
That is no mystery!

The joint venture means that all 4 airlines (DL/AF/KL/AZ) operate as one -sharing all costs, revenues, planning, etc - so AZ as by far the junior partner can't sway things their way.

It seems that the Etihad folks, in particular, are keen to see Alitalia expand on transatlantic services. But they need DL/KL/AF to all sign off on this and they simply don't want to listen to AZ.

Of course, a lot of this could just be noise...does being able to run flights across the Atlantic without requiring the approval, and revenue-sharing, of the JV partners really warrant breaking out of the alliance? It may be that AZ no longer feels that the sum total of all the benefits it gets from alliance membership outweigh the negatives or lost opportunities. As regards feed, most of the airlines prefer to acept feed from AZ for their long haul flights, while only feeding to AZ for its shorthaul network. I think there may be quite an imbalance there, and that they may be justified in breaking free.

But even on a more fundamental level, the relationship is somewhat dysfunctional - as you will know from travelling on AF/AZ or KL/AZ tickets.

I just checked in, with KLM, for an Alitalia-coded KL flight. Despite being Freccia Alata, KLM never allowed me to select a seat, even when I got the ladies at the Flying Blue desk in the Crown Lounge at Schiphol on the case (I gave up when, after giving the lady the required half an hour to ring around and try to find how to select a seat for me, the upshot was that I would have to pay €20 to select a seat). At check-in earlier this morning, no seat selection was possible - they just dumped me in a seat (luckily not a middle seat, and luckily not too far back).

They were also "unable to determine your baggage allowance", although they did at least recognise that my boarding pass deserved a SkyPriority red flash.
irishguy28 is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 5:43 am
  #74  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: Platinum: KL Gold: A3 Rust: BA
Posts: 25,361
Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
As a DL DM, I would love VS to become part of Skyteam or at least enter into full JV with AF/KLM. Right now it sucks.
Well, it will continue to suck.

VS has no intention of joining Skyteam. And neither VS nor DL have any intention of sharing the lucrative UK-US spoils with their continental "partners" by including them in that particular JV.

Besides, DL pax that want to travel to the European mainland are adequately catered for via AMS, CDG, FCO and MXP. There is no requirement to add the non-Skyteam hub of LHR into that mix -which, as you point out, would add an extra unnecessary stop for all European mainland-bound traffic.
irishguy28 is offline  
Old Dec 8, 16, 6:47 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
That is no mystery!

The joint venture means that all 4 airlines (DL/AF/KL/AZ) operate as one -sharing all costs, revenues, planning, etc - so AZ as by far the junior partner can't sway things their way.

It seems that the Etihad folks, in particular, are keen to see Alitalia expand on transatlantic services. But they need DL/KL/AF to all sign off on this and they simply don't want to listen to AZ.

Of course, a lot of this could just be noise...does being able to run flights across the Atlantic without requiring the approval, and revenue-sharing, of the JV partners really warrant breaking out of the alliance? It may be that AZ no longer feels that the sum total of all the benefits it gets from alliance membership outweigh the negatives or lost opportunities. As regards feed, most of the airlines prefer to acept feed from AZ for their long haul flights, while only feeding to AZ for its shorthaul network. I think there may be quite an imbalance there, and that they may be justified in breaking free.

But even on a more fundamental level, the relationship is somewhat dysfunctional - as you will know from travelling on AF/AZ or KL/AZ tickets.

I just checked in, with KLM, for an Alitalia-coded KL flight. Despite being Freccia Alata, KLM never allowed me to select a seat, even when I got the ladies at the Flying Blue desk in the Crown Lounge at Schiphol on the case (I gave up when, after giving the lady the required half an hour to ring around and try to find how to select a seat for me, the upshot was that I would have to pay €20 to select a seat). At check-in earlier this morning, no seat selection was possible - they just dumped me in a seat (luckily not a middle seat, and luckily not too far back).

They were also "unable to determine your baggage allowance", although they did at least recognise that my boarding pass deserved a SkyPriority red flash.
Great post, totally agree. Amongst the main causes contributing to AZ [financial] misfortunes, the confined long-haul network (which has been shrinking further over the years and since the airline decided to abandon MXP) plays a predominant role, hence if you are in a position where your expansion plans are somehow curbed by long-standing agreements, then no wonder why AZ is re-considering their options. It is painfully obvious that, in a market which is highly influenced by fierce competitions from low-cost carriers (and to such great extent), a network which concentrates mostly on short and medium haul is simply recipe for disaster.

G
AlicorporateUK is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: