Korean award: Skymiles available, nothing with Flying Blue!?
Aug 19, 2015, 6:56 am
#16
Join Date: Jul 2011
Programs: AA Plat, UA 1K>Plat>moving to Silver
Posts: 2,089
Yes, does anyone have some specific words to instruct the agent how to locate Korean Air award availability when calling FB to use FB miles?
Aug 25, 2015, 2:23 am
#17
Join Date: Aug 2005
Programs: FB Platinum LT, HK Airlines whatever, Skywards Ex-Gold :-)
Posts: 122
Happy to help:
Tell the agent that he has to make a so called "Blind Booking"!
Usually FB cannot see the (award) availability when checking the flight, they have to make a booking (X for Eco, O for Business Class), when the sent the booking within a few seconds up to two minutes the KE system confirms or deny the booking. The FB booking machine has improved in the last months, so you might be able to book the award as well online. Unfortunately when you check the award availability on the KE website it shows you availability; however it does not mean that you can book an award with FB miles. FB has a limited number of seats in their contingent, if those seats are taken, they will not be able to book any awards seats for that specific KE flight, even the award booking class this flight is still available. I had a very long conversation with a KE employee via the call center who explained that to me last week...
I hope this helps..
Good luck
Tell the agent that he has to make a so called "Blind Booking"!
Usually FB cannot see the (award) availability when checking the flight, they have to make a booking (X for Eco, O for Business Class), when the sent the booking within a few seconds up to two minutes the KE system confirms or deny the booking. The FB booking machine has improved in the last months, so you might be able to book the award as well online. Unfortunately when you check the award availability on the KE website it shows you availability; however it does not mean that you can book an award with FB miles. FB has a limited number of seats in their contingent, if those seats are taken, they will not be able to book any awards seats for that specific KE flight, even the award booking class this flight is still available. I had a very long conversation with a KE employee via the call center who explained that to me last week...
I hope this helps..
Good luck
Aug 25, 2015, 3:05 am
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Netherlands
Programs: FB Gold
Posts: 399
Thank you AF 001, it is little snippets of information like that that make this forum so worthwhile. Indeed for the first time I am now seeing KE J class award availability on the FB award pages and CI J class is also back, both of which could be very useful to me. Does anyone know if these are now also appearing on the KVS tool? My subscription has run out, but if it is now more comprehensive I may well consider renewing.
Aug 25, 2015, 11:16 am
#19
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.
Aug 25, 2015, 12:21 pm
#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCNL
Does anyone know if these are now also appearing on the KVS tool? My subscription has run out, but if it is now more comprehensive I may well consider renewing.
KVS Tool has 100% SkyTeam Award Availability coverage (incl. KE & CI) -- it can't get any "more comprehensive" than that .
Originally Posted by AJCNL
Does anyone know if these are now also appearing on the KVS tool? My subscription has run out, but if it is now more comprehensive I may well consider renewing.
KVS Tool has 100% SkyTeam Award Availability coverage (incl. KE & CI) -- it can't get any "more comprehensive" than that .
In general me thinks that the principles of award availability on ST differ from those with *A, for example, where certain award seat are available (nearly!) alliance-wide.
Aug 25, 2015, 1:20 pm
#21
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Aug 25, 2015, 2:38 pm
#22
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Aug 25, 2015, 2:44 pm
#23
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I should also clarify that in relation to KE award availability, all I have observed is that the FB award tool now shows KE J class availability on the route ICN-AKL, something that I have never seen displayed before.
Aug 31, 2015, 11:33 am
#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
What is "Skyteam Award Availabilty" Skyteam Award Availabiltysupposed to mean?
SkyTeam Award Availability refers to Award Seats on SkyTeam member airlines that are accessible for redemption by members of other partner SkyTeam FFP programmes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
We have just learned here that award availability on KE flights differs according to the FFP that you are a member of.
An airline may provide preferential Award Availability to members of its own FFP, which would be in addition to SkyTeam Award Availability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
I don't think there is such a thing as "Skyteam Award Availability". And if it existed, where would KVS get this information from?
The sources vary by specific airline -- further details can be found in the SkyTeam section of the KVS Tool User Guide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
If it is via Flying Blue membership, for example, then we have also just learned that not all KE award available can be seen via the FB award tool;
AJCNL's observations actually indicate quite the opposite:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCNL
Indeed for the first time I am now seeing KE J class award availability on the FB award pages and CI J class is also back, both of which could be very useful to me. Does anyone know if these are now also appearing on the KVS tool?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
you need to do a "Blind Booking".
An explanation for the Long Sell process (which is the correct name for "Blind Booking" can also be found in the KVS Tool User Guide.
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
What is "Skyteam Award Availabilty" Skyteam Award Availabiltysupposed to mean?
SkyTeam Award Availability refers to Award Seats on SkyTeam member airlines that are accessible for redemption by members of other partner SkyTeam FFP programmes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
We have just learned here that award availability on KE flights differs according to the FFP that you are a member of.
An airline may provide preferential Award Availability to members of its own FFP, which would be in addition to SkyTeam Award Availability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
I don't think there is such a thing as "Skyteam Award Availability". And if it existed, where would KVS get this information from?
The sources vary by specific airline -- further details can be found in the SkyTeam section of the KVS Tool User Guide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
If it is via Flying Blue membership, for example, then we have also just learned that not all KE award available can be seen via the FB award tool;
AJCNL's observations actually indicate quite the opposite:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCNL
Indeed for the first time I am now seeing KE J class award availability on the FB award pages and CI J class is also back, both of which could be very useful to me. Does anyone know if these are now also appearing on the KVS tool?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
you need to do a "Blind Booking".
An explanation for the Long Sell process (which is the correct name for "Blind Booking"
can also be found in the KVS Tool User Guide.
Aug 31, 2015, 9:47 pm
#25
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Thank you very much for your detailed response. There is one thing though that I don't understand yet. If I would like to find a Flying Blue award with the KVS tool and the Flying Blue staff themselves can check availability for the airline in question only(!) by doing a "Long Sell", then how could the KVS tool possibly know that there is availability, given that querying Flying Blue via my account would not be sufficient to find availability.
Sep 1, 2015, 1:55 pm
#26
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
Thank you very much for your detailed response. There is one thing though that I don't understand yet. If I would like to find a Flying Blue award with the KVS tool and the Flying Blue staff themselves can check availability for the airline in question only(!) by doing a "Long Sell", then how could the KVS tool possibly know that there is availability, given that querying Flying Blue via my account would not be sufficient to find availability.
KVS Tool supports multiple sources for Award Availability -- carrier-specific details can be found in the SkyTeam section of the KVS Tool User Guide.
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
Thank you very much for your detailed response. There is one thing though that I don't understand yet. If I would like to find a Flying Blue award with the KVS tool and the Flying Blue staff themselves can check availability for the airline in question only(!) by doing a "Long Sell", then how could the KVS tool possibly know that there is availability, given that querying Flying Blue via my account would not be sufficient to find availability.
KVS Tool supports multiple sources for Award Availability -- carrier-specific details can be found in the SkyTeam section of the KVS Tool User Guide.
(And of course one would have to leave out a query via the FFP of the airline that one actually would like to fly with because they may offer, to their own customers, award seats that are not available for Flying Blue customers.)
To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards") that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.)
And that (b) Flying Blue's search machine gives only an incomplete record of these "ST awards", but that other FFPs may have a record of award seats that is more complete, at least partially so.
I am particularly skeptical about (a)[which makes assumption (b) futile].
I am well aware that assumption (a) is true for *A (with a few exceptions), but in years of participating regularly in FT discussions and of reading the Flying Blue forum nearly every single day, I have not come across any post that would substantiate this assumption. In other words: I doubt that the concept of "ST awards" exists in a way similar to *A awards. But I am happy to hear about it if I have overlooked anything over the past 10 years.
Last edited by cityflyer369; Sep 1, 2015 at 2:04 pm
Sep 2, 2015, 9:09 am
#27
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To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards") that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.)
There is no conceptual difference between *A & *S Partner Awards, but *S is more prone to technical issues with Partner Award Availability.
Sep 10, 2015, 1:58 pm
#28
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn
Programs: Delta Diamond, Bonvoy something good; sometimes other things too
Posts: 5,050
Are you suggesting that as a Flying Blue member one should carry out a query via all ST FFPs that the KVS tool can query, in the hope that one of these programs shows award availability that Flying Blue can find only via "Long Selling"?
(And of course one would have to leave out a query via the FFP of the airline that one actually would like to fly with because they may offer, to their own customers, award seats that are not available for Flying Blue customers.)
To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards") that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.)
And that (b) Flying Blue's search machine gives only an incomplete record of these "ST awards", but that other FFPs may have a record of award seats that is more complete, at least partially so.
I am particularly skeptical about (a)[which makes assumption (b) futile].
I am well aware that assumption (a) is true for *A (with a few exceptions), but in years of participating regularly in FT discussions and of reading the Flying Blue forum nearly every single day, I have not come across any post that would substantiate this assumption. In other words: I doubt that the concept of "ST awards" exists in a way similar to *A awards. But I am happy to hear about it if I have overlooked anything over the past 10 years.
(And of course one would have to leave out a query via the FFP of the airline that one actually would like to fly with because they may offer, to their own customers, award seats that are not available for Flying Blue customers.)
To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards") that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.)
And that (b) Flying Blue's search machine gives only an incomplete record of these "ST awards", but that other FFPs may have a record of award seats that is more complete, at least partially so.
I am particularly skeptical about (a)[which makes assumption (b) futile].
I am well aware that assumption (a) is true for *A (with a few exceptions), but in years of participating regularly in FT discussions and of reading the Flying Blue forum nearly every single day, I have not come across any post that would substantiate this assumption. In other words: I doubt that the concept of "ST awards" exists in a way similar to *A awards. But I am happy to hear about it if I have overlooked anything over the past 10 years.
And while it is probably true that if DL can book a KE award, then likely AF can too (though it might require some extra work), this is not necessarily guaranteed. For example there have been some instances where awards on AF/KL metal seem to be available for booking using AS miles but not using DL miles. There is no such thing as a single unified "SkyTeam award seat".
Sep 10, 2015, 6:51 pm
#29
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: GLA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
Are you suggesting that as a Flying Blue member one should carry out a query via all ST FFPs that the KVS tool can query, in the hope that one of these programs shows award availability that Flying Blue can find only via "Long Selling"?
(And of course one would have to leave out a query via the FFP of the airline that one actually would like to fly with because they may offer, to their own customers, award seats that are not available for Flying Blue customers.)
To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards" that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.)
And that (b) Flying Blue's search machine gives only an incomplete record of these "ST awards", but that other FFPs may have a record of award seats that is more complete, at least partially so.
I am particularly skeptical about (a)[which makes assumption (b) futile].
I am well aware that assumption (a) is true for *A (with a few exceptions), but in years of participating regularly in FT discussions and of reading the Flying Blue forum nearly every single day, I have not come across any post that would substantiate this assumption. In other words: I doubt that the concept of "ST awards" exists in a way similar to *A awards. But I am happy to hear about it if I have overlooked anything over the past 10 years.
KVS is being rather willfully obtuse here (and I say this as a KVS fan) -- you are correct that KVS shows results by screen-scraping a few other websites, including AF's. So if AF is showing incorrect availability then it will show incorrectly on the KVS tool when searching by that method. KVS also lets you search for KE awards via DL and AS, but as discussed in this thread neither of those tools are necessarily 100% accurate.
And while it is probably true that if DL can book a KE award, then likely AF can too (though it might require some extra work), this is not necessarily guaranteed. For example there have been some instances where awards on AF/KL metal seem to be available for booking using AS miles but not using DL miles. There is no such thing as a single unified "SkyTeam award seat".
Originally Posted by cityflyer369
Are you suggesting that as a Flying Blue member one should carry out a query via all ST FFPs that the KVS tool can query, in the hope that one of these programs shows award availability that Flying Blue can find only via "Long Selling"?
(And of course one would have to leave out a query via the FFP of the airline that one actually would like to fly with because they may offer, to their own customers, award seats that are not available for Flying Blue customers.)
To me this approach seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) there is a type of award seats (let's call them "ST awards"
that are available via all ST FFPs. (With ST FFPs typically offering more seats on their own airline to their own customers, on top of those available to all customers of all other ST FFPs.) And that (b) Flying Blue's search machine gives only an incomplete record of these "ST awards", but that other FFPs may have a record of award seats that is more complete, at least partially so.
I am particularly skeptical about (a)[which makes assumption (b) futile].
I am well aware that assumption (a) is true for *A (with a few exceptions), but in years of participating regularly in FT discussions and of reading the Flying Blue forum nearly every single day, I have not come across any post that would substantiate this assumption. In other words: I doubt that the concept of "ST awards" exists in a way similar to *A awards. But I am happy to hear about it if I have overlooked anything over the past 10 years.
KVS is being rather willfully obtuse here (and I say this as a KVS fan) -- you are correct that KVS shows results by screen-scraping a few other websites, including AF's. So if AF is showing incorrect availability then it will show incorrectly on the KVS tool when searching by that method. KVS also lets you search for KE awards via DL and AS, but as discussed in this thread neither of those tools are necessarily 100% accurate.
And while it is probably true that if DL can book a KE award, then likely AF can too (though it might require some extra work), this is not necessarily guaranteed. For example there have been some instances where awards on AF/KL metal seem to be available for booking using AS miles but not using DL miles. There is no such thing as a single unified "SkyTeam award seat".
Sep 11, 2015, 12:56 am
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
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