Changes to long-haul awards
Apr 25, 2013, 2:29 pm
#76
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Just between you and me, instead of "zouave" which is, shall we say, a "Captain Haddock-type" insult, I had originally used a polite but not very nice noun, which assumed extremely minimal intellectual strength on the part of whoever designed the change! This being said, my use of lyrical insults is mostly meant as cheap way of annoying those FB people who are putting so much effort into making Flying Blue the Cyprus of European FFPs in case they are reading this thread! 
Apr 25, 2013, 2:41 pm
#77
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
Programs: FB Plat for life, FB PC, M&M FT, Hertz President (+ many low tier cards)
Posts: 2,777
As some of you may know I am inclined to put rants or negative views into perspective, and look for positive sides, but right now I seriously can't.
You see, whilst Aprils fools was a weak attempt to increase the difference of benefits between their low yield and high yield customers, this change affects all, and the ones who fly AF/KL most to make and pursue lots of miles arguably even more.
"Reduced carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" Whatever that's supposed to mean, doesn't even remotely come close to the value of the increase in miles for award tickets, even if 100% of "carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" would be covered. Obviously all about cost saving really and trying to get away with it with some marketing BS. What a ripp-off and insult!
Does it make sense from a marketing point of view?
I know that they will keep their corporate customers despite of this, and they will keep most of their customers who like direct flights above anything else. But if they think they will keep the ones who have a choice, well, perhaps some but certainly not all. And if they think they can attract frequent flyers who do have choice....lost case...frequent flyers are surely more educated than buying into this never ending massive inflation scheme! (And NEV4 and 3-4-3 on 777's and such...)
Edit: oh, and I am sure they will keep their NONREV upgrades, too.
You see, whilst Aprils fools was a weak attempt to increase the difference of benefits between their low yield and high yield customers, this change affects all, and the ones who fly AF/KL most to make and pursue lots of miles arguably even more.
"Reduced carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" Whatever that's supposed to mean, doesn't even remotely come close to the value of the increase in miles for award tickets, even if 100% of "carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" would be covered. Obviously all about cost saving really and trying to get away with it with some marketing BS. What a ripp-off and insult!
Does it make sense from a marketing point of view?
I know that they will keep their corporate customers despite of this, and they will keep most of their customers who like direct flights above anything else. But if they think they will keep the ones who have a choice, well, perhaps some but certainly not all. And if they think they can attract frequent flyers who do have choice....lost case...frequent flyers are surely more educated than buying into this never ending massive inflation scheme! (And NEV4 and 3-4-3 on 777's and such...)
Edit: oh, and I am sure they will keep their NONREV upgrades, too.
Last edited by Zembla; Apr 25, 2013 at 3:08 pm
Apr 25, 2013, 2:41 pm
#78
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH FTL, HHonors Gold, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Ambassador, BA down to nobody, Grand Voyageur Le Club
Posts: 12,403
Thanks for compiling these charts. With respect specifically to your presentation of the changes for Premium Economy, the comparison would be comprehensive if you could compare the combination of miles & surcharge prior to the changes and after the changes.
Apr 25, 2013, 2:51 pm
#79
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Yes and someone with both math skills and time could perhaps calculate the cost per mile against the savings in lower surcharges to see what the real benefits are, if any.
Apr 25, 2013, 3:23 pm
#80
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geneva
Programs: LX SEN, AFKL Platinum, BA Bronze,
Posts: 5,624
Wow, my remaining 2000 miles have seriously devalued...
And I was about to consider returning to AFKL when the new C seat would be introduced. Now I wonder whether there are any reasons left to fly AFKL, other than perhaps the convenience of direct flights.
In two years FB will have 20 million members, all Ivory to get the free bag, plus a handful of LTPEswho cannot get rid of FB, and the corporate Silver/Golds who are forced to fly AFKL.
Great job, finally pushing the remaining loyal customers away to the competition.
And I was about to consider returning to AFKL when the new C seat would be introduced. Now I wonder whether there are any reasons left to fly AFKL, other than perhaps the convenience of direct flights.
In two years FB will have 20 million members, all Ivory to get the free bag, plus a handful of LTPEswho cannot get rid of FB, and the corporate Silver/Golds who are forced to fly AFKL.
Great job, finally pushing the remaining loyal customers away to the competition.
Apr 25, 2013, 3:45 pm
#81
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
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Posts: 2,777
In case I find a spare moment for a few hours in the coming days I am more than happy to prove that with factual examples.
I've got over a million, thank you very much!
EDIT: Ah, we've had Aprils fools, I've think I've found a suitable handle for this too: "Cyprusgate" :-D
Last edited by Zembla; Apr 25, 2013 at 4:21 pm
Apr 25, 2013, 4:19 pm
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Oh boy.
Oh boy.
Am I ever glad that I use KL only for my AMS-CPH commute (for reasons of schedule convenience) racking up all of 187+187 miles per flight. With my store of maybe 50,000 miles (to which KQ made the biggest contribution when they gave me 3,000 for a broken footrest), I can just lean back and watch developments with a mixture of amazement and mild amusement.
Johan
Oh boy.
Am I ever glad that I use KL only for my AMS-CPH commute (for reasons of schedule convenience) racking up all of 187+187 miles per flight. With my store of maybe 50,000 miles (to which KQ made the biggest contribution when they gave me 3,000 for a broken footrest), I can just lean back and watch developments with a mixture of amazement and mild amusement.
Johan
Apr 25, 2013, 7:57 pm
#83
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Join Date: Nov 2002
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The fuel surcharges are usually origin and destination market specific and vary between non-stop and connecting flights, right? You could likely do a sample about the differences by picking number of different city pairs.
Last edited by holtju2; Apr 25, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Apr 25, 2013, 9:45 pm
#84
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
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The more details are published, the more obscene the programme proves to be. I can only think of two possible explainations to the changes imposed:
(1) AF-KL don't care about normal customers anymore. They only care about their 'abonnes' who are a captive audience anyway, they really don't want anyone else flying their planes or if we do AF considers we should just feel thankful that they do us the favour of issuing a ticket for us;
And/or (2) AF-KL are simply completely delusional about the value and quality of their products and so oblivious about the difference between themselves and competition that they continue feeling that they are entirely right in their own little parallel world.
My guess is that we have a mix of (1) and (2). Someone at Flying Blue who has never sat their bum in an Economy or Premium Economy seat anyway because they get upgraded to J every time they fly has randomly decided that people will find it normal to pay twice the amount of miles to fly in Premium Economy as opposed to Y because they read somewhere in the official propaganda that AF's PE is "best in class" and a wonderful improvement over economy. Better (wait), that same brainless zouave is somehow persuaded that a free and not entirely stupid customer will be more than happy to pay 80000 FB miles for the cheapest CDG-HKG in Premium Economy with Air France while they can get CDG-HKG on Cathay Pacific's amazing J class for 60000 EC miles or First class for 90000 miles (because AF's F is much much much better as confirmed by the Party's little Red Book AF F on the same route is priced at 260000 miles and now downgraded to the status of 'classic' F award meaning that presumably the same very intelligent customer who has chosen to waste his high paid travel to earn worthless miles on Flying Blue will now have to book into A inventory rather than F and pay for changes for his bargain award ticket). Our fictitious Flying Blue friend who has decided that this makes perfect sense has undoubtedly read somewhere that Cathay Pacific is well over-rated, that passengers dislike getting caviar in F, that Shanghai Tang is probably the equivalent of Tati because its designer clothes are "made in China" and that surely the private cabanas in CX's First lounges can't possibly be anywhere near as good as AF's (admittedly excellent) F lounge.
Not only are the new W, J, and F awards ridiculously priced but the surcharges are not in the least attractive. One should also note that in the table linked above are only for the CARRIER imposed surcharges (YQ) and thus come in ADDITION to genuine airport and government taxes such as APD etc. This is a joke, and a very bad one at that.
I would also like to remind all of our already disappointed friends that even though the news looks bad on the face of it, the 'real' news is even worse than it looks: the ridiculous new award prices that you see (eg. 100,000 miles for a one way CDG-HKG in J) are only the 'headline' prices for the LOWEST band of awards and AF are confirming in the fine print that they are extending their brilliant idea of 'multi band' awards to long haul awards in both Y and J. This means that some CLASSIC CDG-HKG awards in J will effectively be priced 125,000 or 150,000 one way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In other words, the "slight" increase in J award prices is therefore not 25% but most likely between 25 and 100%. Flying Blue are, as usual, adding a completely unverifiable (as revenue management remains in charge and does not reveal seat formulas) and most likely dishonest claim about "more seats" mysteriously becoming available for awards but I think I sooner believe our governments when they tell us that our budgets will be balanced by the end of the year
In other words, as my Aussie and American friends would say, they are 'playing us for suckers'...
(1) AF-KL don't care about normal customers anymore. They only care about their 'abonnes' who are a captive audience anyway, they really don't want anyone else flying their planes or if we do AF considers we should just feel thankful that they do us the favour of issuing a ticket for us;
And/or (2) AF-KL are simply completely delusional about the value and quality of their products and so oblivious about the difference between themselves and competition that they continue feeling that they are entirely right in their own little parallel world.
My guess is that we have a mix of (1) and (2). Someone at Flying Blue who has never sat their bum in an Economy or Premium Economy seat anyway because they get upgraded to J every time they fly has randomly decided that people will find it normal to pay twice the amount of miles to fly in Premium Economy as opposed to Y because they read somewhere in the official propaganda that AF's PE is "best in class" and a wonderful improvement over economy. Better (wait), that same brainless zouave is somehow persuaded that a free and not entirely stupid customer will be more than happy to pay 80000 FB miles for the cheapest CDG-HKG in Premium Economy with Air France while they can get CDG-HKG on Cathay Pacific's amazing J class for 60000 EC miles or First class for 90000 miles (because AF's F is much much much better as confirmed by the Party's little Red Book AF F on the same route is priced at 260000 miles and now downgraded to the status of 'classic' F award meaning that presumably the same very intelligent customer who has chosen to waste his high paid travel to earn worthless miles on Flying Blue will now have to book into A inventory rather than F and pay for changes for his bargain award ticket). Our fictitious Flying Blue friend who has decided that this makes perfect sense has undoubtedly read somewhere that Cathay Pacific is well over-rated, that passengers dislike getting caviar in F, that Shanghai Tang is probably the equivalent of Tati because its designer clothes are "made in China" and that surely the private cabanas in CX's First lounges can't possibly be anywhere near as good as AF's (admittedly excellent) F lounge.
Not only are the new W, J, and F awards ridiculously priced but the surcharges are not in the least attractive. One should also note that in the table linked above are only for the CARRIER imposed surcharges (YQ) and thus come in ADDITION to genuine airport and government taxes such as APD etc. This is a joke, and a very bad one at that.
I would also like to remind all of our already disappointed friends that even though the news looks bad on the face of it, the 'real' news is even worse than it looks: the ridiculous new award prices that you see (eg. 100,000 miles for a one way CDG-HKG in J) are only the 'headline' prices for the LOWEST band of awards and AF are confirming in the fine print that they are extending their brilliant idea of 'multi band' awards to long haul awards in both Y and J. This means that some CLASSIC CDG-HKG awards in J will effectively be priced 125,000 or 150,000 one way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In other words, the "slight" increase in J award prices is therefore not 25% but most likely between 25 and 100%. Flying Blue are, as usual, adding a completely unverifiable (as revenue management remains in charge and does not reveal seat formulas) and most likely dishonest claim about "more seats" mysteriously becoming available for awards but I think I sooner believe our governments when they tell us that our budgets will be balanced by the end of the year
In other words, as my Aussie and American friends would say, they are 'playing us for suckers'...
Apr 26, 2013, 12:57 am
#85
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: FB, Starwood
Posts: 66
Now I understand, why they offered the 35% bonus to transfer the miles from AMEX. Kind of like government paying 1% on bonds in 3% inflation. And I'm due for a set of new first class PJs to boot. Better book the flights while the old scheme is in effect.
Apr 26, 2013, 2:18 am
#86
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GVA,OPO
Programs: BD the last decent FFP
Posts: 1,856
wow... All of this is so bad and lacking any value to frequent flyers that is shocking.
520k F award return to Asia, really?
With which FFP's does did compete with exactly?
I'm just glad that I never took up the FB Plat matching to fly AFKL.
4 words of advice to FB. Keeley Downing. Start over.
GBM
520k F award return to Asia, really?
With which FFP's does did compete with exactly?
I'm just glad that I never took up the FB Plat matching to fly AFKL.
4 words of advice to FB. Keeley Downing. Start over.
GBM
Apr 26, 2013, 6:00 am
#87
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH FTL, HHonors Gold, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Ambassador, BA down to nobody, Grand Voyageur Le Club
Posts: 12,403
"Reduced carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" Whatever that's supposed to mean, doesn't even remotely come close to the value of the increase in miles for award tickets, even if 100% of "carrier-imposed international surcharges for Economy & Premium Economy Class awards" would be covered. Obviously all about cost saving really and trying to get away with it with some marketing BS. What a ripp-off and insult!
Apr 26, 2013, 6:01 am
#88
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Posts: 102,095
It's still to be seen what exactly happens with economy class awards -- a devaluation of sort there is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility in this game.
With AF-KL's repeatedly hostile approach to frequent flyer customers using its own program, my interest to credit flights or other partner activity to AF-KL's program keeps dropping and dropping and dropping.
AF-KL makes ditching them so very easy on me, with AF-KL repeatedly handing out status matches, complimentary status upgrades and elite status soft-landings -- that takes care of the rest of my reduced use for SkyTeam flights since my world mostly does not revolve around trips originating or terminating at AMS or CDG.
AF-KL management must have an idea that their hostile approach to AF-KL most frequent flyers does not foster loyalty; they seem fine with that and with shifting to bloating or coddling the ranks of infrequent flyers in the AF-KL "loyalty" program.
With AF-KL's repeatedly hostile approach to frequent flyer customers using its own program, my interest to credit flights or other partner activity to AF-KL's program keeps dropping and dropping and dropping.
AF-KL makes ditching them so very easy on me, with AF-KL repeatedly handing out status matches, complimentary status upgrades and elite status soft-landings -- that takes care of the rest of my reduced use for SkyTeam flights since my world mostly does not revolve around trips originating or terminating at AMS or CDG.
AF-KL management must have an idea that their hostile approach to AF-KL most frequent flyers does not foster loyalty; they seem fine with that and with shifting to bloating or coddling the ranks of infrequent flyers in the AF-KL "loyalty" program.
Apr 26, 2013, 7:08 am
#89
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MEL
Programs: DL, QF, QR Gold, MR Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,002
FF programs are being gutted all over the place. Across the pond, DL, UA and AA are all diluting their programs. The days of playing the FF game are quickly coming to an end. They are all going in the same direction, rewarding HVCs (high-value customers) and leaving low-yield customers behind. I don't like it, but I can't say that I blame them.
On the specific changes, I have 2 comments:
1.
That last sentence is something that I've heard from DL several years ago and it was a GIANT lie. More tiers means that low awards are for the most part gone.
2. Premium economy DOUBLE the miles of regular Y?! I find that pretty ridiculous. You get a few extra inches of space and a curtain that separates you from Y. Who in their right mind would pay double for that?!
On the specific changes, I have 2 comments:
1.
AIR FRANCE and KLM have increased the number of award booking classes, strongly increasing your award availability. As is the case with commercial tickets, the price of a Classic award ticket will vary depending on the available booking class. You will however still find many seats available at the lowest Miles level.
2. Premium economy DOUBLE the miles of regular Y?! I find that pretty ridiculous. You get a few extra inches of space and a curtain that separates you from Y. Who in their right mind would pay double for that?!
Apr 26, 2013, 7:12 am
#90
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,711
Some idiot called "Freddie" gave Flying Blue an award last night. Nay, two awards!
With such positive instant feedback, we can expect many more such positive changes in future!
With such positive instant feedback, we can expect many more such positive changes in future!