jsn55

I am frustrated by this website, sometimes I can find what I'm interested in, other times I just churn round and round. Perhaps someone can educate me on how to use FlyerTalk efficiently.

Right now I have a choice of flying KLM or Air France to Europe, final city TBD, probably buying one tix and using DL miles for the other. I'd like to compare the business class service on these two airlines and pick the one we'd like best. I would like to read Trip Reports and other information posted by people who have flown these two airlines in biz class in the last couple of years. I search for "Air France" and get postings on lots of airlines. Can someone help me navigate this excellent source of information and find what I'm looking for? I use TripAdvisor constantly, so I don't understand why I can't make FlyerTalk work - there must be some big secret that I haven't yet figured out. Thanks for any guidance.

ulxima

You may have a look here for Air France and here for KLM

Ciao
Ulxima

orbitmic

There are actually tons (literally) of threads that have been opened just to compare AF and KL business class. You can 'search this forum' on Flyertalk but the function is - with all due respect to the website - not very good so you are typically better off just googling 'compare AF and KLM business class' and select a result on flyertalk and ask for 'more results from this site'. You will usually find a near 50-50 split with variations depending on aircraft type, destination, etc. I hope that this helps.

pantanal

short answer IMHO

AF - Much better hard product
KLM - Better soft product

If you are SFO based I would get whichever airline has availability of their nonstop
sfo-ams
sfo-cdg

jsn55

Ulxima, thanks for the links, I'm a regular BT reader/commenter ... I am looking for current reviews/reports. I have to laugh at the idea of googling my little quest, but it's something I hadn't thought of! It's comforting to know that it's FlyerTalk itself and not my inability to use the website. Pantanal, I'm assuming that Air France has a better airplane and KLM better service? Is that what you mean by hard/soft? My major concern is the comfort of the aircraft itself; unless the FAs are nasty or the food inedible I'm usually fine with all the other stuff. Off I go to Google!

pantanal

AF seats are better. Lie flat seats(angled). Much better for sleeping.

KLM are cradle seats but not too bad.

KLM service is better and connecting via AMS is MUCH BETTER than CDG which is a crazy airport.

Like I said, get the flight that saves you time. If both are equally convenient, then choose AF.

brunos

Both KL and AF have old angled seats. AF seats can be of three different generations and there are marked difference in terms of comfort. We refer to them as NEV2, NEV3, and NEV4 on this forum. It you compare to flat beds, they are bad and can create back pains. They get very low rankings in terms of sleep comfort on Skytrax.
Now that American airlines have installed (or are installing) flat beds, AFKL biz seats are among the worse in the industry.
"Hard product" basically means the seat (and the very small TV screen). Bad on both airlines.
The "soft product" meaning service/food/wine, etc... is more subjective. Neither airline is bad. AF crews are elegant, but many of them do the minimum service required by their "contract" and spend the rest of the time chatting in the galley. Other crews are better. Cannot comment on KL.

ulxima

Are you sure that KL J are cradle seats?
Perhaps they did not complete the revamp of their fleet but I surely flew two 744s out of PVG equipped with lie-flat beds in 2010 and in 2011.

Ulxima

Zembla

Lie-flat on 774?...slippery sloap seats with three seat segments at odd different angles...

The 773 and a few 33X have a NEV3 equivalent which is the best KL has on offer at the moment. All other aircraft have the famous slippery slope seat, including the 774. It's not realy a cradle though, because you can lie down on it. But it's not very comfortable compared to what the majority has at the moment.

andypandy

This is incorrect. The KLM flight out of PVG is on 747.
But the business seats are not flat and not horizontal.
They are old style wedge recliner seats with a footrest, unchanged since the early 1970s in many ways.

andypandy

were you referring to this?
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...12_265077.html

ulxima

If we agree on the definition of seat as written here then KLM are lie flat seats.
They might be slippery, with three seat segments at odd different angles, not very comfortable, and whatever else you like but they are not realy a cradle though, because you can lie down on it.

Ulxima

ulxima

I wrote that I flew one of their 744s. Actually it was the 74E (747-400 Combi).


I noticed the difference between the seat I flew in 2004-05 and the one I flew in 2010-11.
Not horizontal, not perfectly flat, yet with a reclining angle that is more than the wedge (or cradle) style.
Comfortable enough to sleep, IMHO.

Ulxima

flyertalker00143

so far the only business seat i really liked with Air France was the one on the A380, i don't know which version of the NEV it is, but i really like it

otherwise, i found most KLM business seats better than AF's in general

but my lack of experience in business class with AF may not make me the best judge for that

what i know for sure now is that i really hate the premium voyageur seat with AF

pantanal

They are not really cradle. I really don't know how to define them. I guess you could call them angled. But they are definitively not as good as the AF Business beds (at least the new ones). Not saying AF business beds are great but they are better than KLM business seats

Here are some pics comparing the seats

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/deltap...-delta-af-klm/