brunos

To me, the old KL seat on the picture is what used to be called "reclining" or "cradle" seat. The link above call it "clam-shell". It is an old reclining technology.

The lie-flat slide down in a fixed shell. Of course, there no commonly-accepted definition of a lie-flat. If one takes SeatGuru definition ("While airlines often market these seats as having 180 degrees of recline, in their fully reclined position they are slightly angled and do not lay completely horizontal."), then AF NEV2 and 3 are not even lie-flat as they are angled but not flat. They recline to about 170° but the foot cushion is much more angled that the hip cushion. NEV4 gets mostly flat (but angled).

andypandy

These mealy mouthed marketing words are so frustrating. Do they take us as idiots? I concede that on a point of pedantry "flat" can mean "having a smooth, even surface" and thus KLMs angled recliner business class seat could be called "lie-flat".

But usually we talk about "flat" as meaning "horizontal, not sloping"
e.g. flat roof vs sloping roof - and KLM's extended seat is definitely sloping rather than flat.

There may be "no commonly-accepted definition of a lie-flat", but when we lie down at night to sleep, all 7 billion of us (including KLM marketing people) lie on flat horizontal beds.

What ever the marketing people want to say, the current KLM business class seats and all the AF ones I have used are outdated, uncomfortable, not ideal for sleep, not what the passengers would prefer and behind most of the competition.

andypandy

You may lie on it, it may be flat and it may be your bed for the night, but both AF AND KLM busines class seats are not lie-flat beds. These seats are sloping and you slide to the bottom, giving you a fitful half sleep.

in the last few weeks I have experienced the folowing out of PVG:

KLM business class seat:
almost flat, but very sloping.


AF Business class seat:
almost flat, but still sloping.

af fp

Here is my troubling experience: I do not sleep better on horizontal seats (BA, DL, AF first) than on angled seats (AA, AF, UA, KL, old DL). I have not tried SQ's flying bed in the 380 suite though.

So for me what matters in business is service, food, entertainment, and efficiency (does the seat work, does the entertainment work, does the power work, is all my trip in jets or will I finish crammed in an ATR for the connection after a four hours wait, is the lounge luxurious with delicious food and booze, is the flight on time, is there a wait for check-in, security, boarding, immigration, luggage, customs?).

Lately KL has had the upper hand by a bit, I liked their food better and the service too for example, although some AF lounges rock and their staff sometimes are very helpful. AF has the better champagne, that's very important too.

andypandy

Flight timings are the reason I choose to fly KLM form UK to Far East, even though the seats don't let me sleep properly. I prefer to fly at night.
BA only have 1 flight a day to LHR to PVG and it is a day-time flight. They have the flat bed, but the passengers are all awake.

pantanal

I'm wondering if we helped the OP or confused them further )

andypandy

AF and KLM Business class offer a very similar experience.
Many other threads on Flyertalk agree with this.
Yes there are differences: AF seats are more modern, but neither are true flat beds, CDG is confusing and AMS is a better designed airport with a better business lounge.
Some people prefer the food and service on AF and others prefer it on KLM - it's up to you, but they are both good. Both AF and KLM crews are friendly, immensely helpful, professional, safe and efficient (although there are always some people who will find something to complain about). Overall you will not get a much different experience in one or the other.

After many flights on AF and KLM business class I can honestly say I have no preference. I am never excited to fly one and never regret flying the other. The only issue is the seats - if the seats would extended into flat beds they would both be perfect business class experiences.

You should do like everyone else and choose whichever airline offers the shortest layover, the best routing, the best timings and the best price on the day.

Zembla

No, realy?


^ +1

One more word about the crews. The service style of the AF crew is a bit more formal, the service style of the KL crew a bit more personal. Otherwise, I agree that most of the time they are both very professional and friendly in many ways.

HKG1111

How about the length of the bed in AF vs KL? I heard to the AF seat is very short. I am 6.5 and for me the length is the most important criteria. Any advise?

Kölner

With almost 2 Meters its one of the longest beds.

Zembla

I am 6'8". NEV4 is the only J bed I have experienced where I can stretch and lie like a "plank", be it at an angle.
(And I have experienced the "famous" SQ seat as one of the shortest, even when positioned completely diagonal on it as your supposed to!)

Kölner

Yey, I think this is one big advantage of the Affaires-Bed. It's good for tall people.^