Xandrios

I dont follow. CDG/AMS - ATH is about 1500 miles, 3000 roundtrip. How do you earn up to 30K miles in less than 5 roundtrips (Y) or 90K miles in 5 roundtrips (C)? Perhaps including the 100% Plat bonus?

Still bookable though, ie DFW for 50K roundtrip in C.

KLflyerRalph

I think it was about European Promoawards, which have disappeared.

Richelieu

Simple: neither CDG nor AMS are my home airports. So, both with LX/LH and AF, I must have a connection, and I indeed included a 100% plat bonus: I assumed that the programme was designed to reward top flyers and it's indeed a scenario where AF gives more miles than its competitor. I was calculating the "best case scenario" for AF, to showcase that even when the comparison is centered on the (very narrow) spot where the programme shone, they managed to lose their advantage. In every other case, it was already apparent that Flying Blue wasn't the best option, and the devaluation can't improve that.

31dany

I don't seem to see any destination nor did I found one working link there...

redtailshark

I beg to differ. The notional "three-tier" - but factually, large non-integer multiple - system is not BA's.

It's straight out of the loathed DL SM playbook from several years ago.

Remember this...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...s-alright.html

Remember that the number presented was several non-integer multiples higher than the supposed maximum for such a redemption. DL apologists didn't like this discussion and eventually banned me from their board. I laugh at them, then and now.

AF/KL have been busy learning how to implement the JeffLogic [tm]. it summarily destroys system value because not only are these demands much more costly than before, but the actual number cannot be known prior to attempting the redemption in question. This actively disincetivizes the collection and redemption of FFP.

At least here on FB there seem to be fewer apologists wanting to make excuses for this kind of Jeff-logic [tm].

One more thing: now that FB is moving to a multiple- and variable tier system, like DL SM, it will destroy the value of SM for those based in the US who have come to depend on AF/KL hard pricing for awards and are seeking out the gateways. I'd be surprised if this had nothing to do with the new structure.

Richelieu

Err, I think you misunderstood me. The part where I say "similar to what happened to BA" was an answer to that part:

For pax on the direct flights (or domestic UK flights) to their European destination, the changes to introduce Reward Flight Saver had only positive, no negative that I know of.

orbitmic

I must say that I see little redeeming factor to the way the changes are operated. The fact that European C (or for that matter PV) is poor value is neither here nor there, what is happening is that AF-KL is ultimately making European C awards 'impossible' to get at any remotely logical price and as unaffordable as P awards are on long haul. I also wouldn't put too much hope in the fact that the change will be positive for European awards in Y in the long (or even medium) term at least for AF: indeed I wouldn't be surprised at all if when the new European model is introduced by AF, economy awards ended up booking into the new 'economy minus'. AF would then be able to 'offer' the regular economy as we know it now for 1.5 x more or something similar.

I also find the change without any notice - or indeed any direct communication - extremely poor form at best.

Finally, since noone is mentioning it, I should stress that this new change in European C is simply a further way of disadvantaging FBers as compared to other Skyteam FFers. Indeed, only us will be made to pay more for this while award levels will remain unchanged for partner programmes (of course, availability may be further restricted to them though if they are only given access to the 'lowest' mile level)

DutchBoeing

I am also so mad about this. Unfortunately, it is all true. I call upon everybody here to complain his/her lungs out everywhere! ;-) Esp. complain to KLM. This is what I post everywhere I can:

Warning for everybody who collects Flying Blue miles: over night (last night!) KLM (probably AF too, but I always book through KLM) devaluated the FB-miles with 50% without warning!!! You now need 50% extra miles for an award within Europe (at least in Business Class). I contacted KLM today and they confirmed. I.e. a business class ticket from AMS to the Balkans / Greece used to be 60.000 miles (well, actually, it used to be 50.000 a few years back. Airlines seem to think miles need an inflation correction...). Now you need a shocking 90.000!!! miles. The strange thing is that a business class ticket to i.e. Dubai costs now 80.000 miles and to Belgrade or Athens 90.000! I wouldn't be surprised if they will change the amounts needed for ICA-flights soon too.

Another bad point: they also cancelled the promo awards (50% discount on miles) for Europe!

There is one positive point though: you now no longer have to pay the fuel surcharge and that does save a few tens of euro's. However, if you'd give me the option, I'd rather spend E 50 or 70 extra on a ticket, then pay a whopping 30.000 miles for that!!! If you buy miles, you need E 53 per 2.000 miles, so 30.000 miles is a gross exaggeration.

I am very shocked and appaled, esp. since they didn't warn about this upcoming change at all, but sneakily did it over night, so nobody had time to use the miles anymore. Very bad customer service I think. Wasn't there a law suit about something like this recently? Wasn't an airline ordered to give a decent advance notice about huge changes like this? I believe it was LH or CX. Or even KL with a recent change to FB. I can remember that a business man sued them and settled out of court.

KLM should make it an option: people should be able to choose if they want to pay the fuel surcharge with miles or money.

So everybody who has FB-miles, complain to AF/KL and spent your miles as soon as you can!!!

Regards,

DB

sfozrhfco

Honestly, for anybody still accumulating points with Flying Blue, you only have yourselves to blame. The writing has been on the wall for a couple years now since the last devaluation. Accumulate and burn points as soon as you can with a program like flying blue or choose another carrier and skip AF/KL all together. We have seen time and time again that AF/KL do not know how to use a frequent flyer programme to attract and retain frequent flyers. They do not care to adequately warn members about programme changes. They could care less about their customers. Another devaluation is hardly a surprise. It is becoming a regular event.

Expect more changes you will like ahead. I am sure they will ask your input through flyertalk as nobody at Flying Blue seems to be able to to access other airlines frequent flyer redemption levels by utilizing a new and amazing search engine called google. Flying Blue continues to go from bad to worse.

ajs123

I am just dumbstruck. If this is indeed not a glitch or error, all the good will created at the AF DO has just evaporated for reasons that many have pointed out:
1) Communication of changes. No notification, no clear explanation of the rules and changes. I would not have noticed these changes if I were not frequenting FT. I hope there will be someone someone like in
Germany who is suing LH for changes announced at a too short notice

2) Changes itself. So now to save for a C award to Athens (the popular example in the thread) one will need 360 segments in the lowest fare class and 48 in the highest. (excluding any bonus for plats, etc)
If the changes were just additions to what used to be before (pay for the fuel surcharge), then it would be perfectly acceptable and everyone could make a decision reflecting his/her preference for paying with cash and miles. Now this just looks like a bad joke and an attempt to keep the C cabin even more empty.

3) Expectation. What other drastic improvement are going to be announced?

I ll write down some constructive suggestions (for Gajan and Jouy31's meeting with FB) tomorrow, perhaps things get clearer and less gloomy!

tff

My thoughts exactly.

Shem76

^moved my main FF program from FB to BA a year ago, cant regret.

stimpy

I really don't understand all the negativity here. Some of it is understandable, but really who books intra-Europe C awards? The C product in Europe is barely, just barely better than Y. I only book Y awards intra-Europe and it seems that AF honored our request to improve those, right?

And for those who say this is a surprise, you weren't following our CDG Do thread! The head of AF Marketing told me he would make these changes and I reported it here on Flyertalk back in April. But we were only discussing Y Euro awards, not business class.

Nevertheless, I'm sure that our colleagues will report the dissatisfaction to FB and hopefully when they work on improving the long haul awards, it won't negatively impact business class. Long haul business class is where you want to spend your miles.

stimpy

I just did a comparison with the last Euro award I did.

Before: AMS-LYS 10,000 miles + €64.57

After: AMS-LYS 10,000 miles + €30.12

So the out of pocket cost has been reduced over 50%. Who's complaining about that?

jsfr

I agree with Stimpy!

How quickly we forget all those threads about the lousy value of European awards in Y and the fact that one would be mad to book one given that very often the "paid" rates incuded discount YQ and using miles was almost always in a similar (or sometimes even more expensive) than just buying a ticket.

Everyone agreed the only point using miles for European awards was (1) if you needed flexibility, (2) for a one-way or (3) to be able get Business for not much more.

So with these changes, using miles in Europe on Y becomes a sensible option again.

OK - I agree this ruins European Business Awards, but really - who needs to fly business CDG-LHR, especially on a leisure trip (which most redemptions are?

ATH/IST are maybe a different story.

Just hope this doesn't go anywhere near the Long Haul structure...