Suggestions for improvement to CDG operations

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Old Jul 9, 09, 4:39 pm
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
Why use Terminal 1 Joking.
Because I don't run the risk of ending up on an Air France plane. Dead serious.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 2:34 am
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Originally Posted by creber View Post
Because I don't run the risk of ending up on an Air France plane. Dead serious.
Me too.

But also because:
  • At T1 you can get there with no traffic jams, and get out with no traffic jams ~ or at least a lot less than at T2
  • At T1 you can at least get through security in a reasonable timeframe
  • The T1 based *A airlines and routes that I use are on average 30% cheaper than the comparable AF fare, sometimes 50%
  • You don't taxi 20 minutes to and from the runways
  • No "embarquement par bus" , not that I've been subjected to anyway
  • The lavatories are open, and for the most part clean (as opposed to 2D)
  • The screens work so you know when your flight is leaving and if it's on time or (rarely IMHO) late
  • You can at least get something to drink when you're airside

I'm sure that others can think of a host more reasons why T1 is more attractive than any of the T2's. I'll accept that relatively speaking and certainly in relation to other airports it's still a favella but it's still 100% better than 2D and as I am often in Germany I can do that very nicely with LH thank you, and also cheaper than I can do it with AF, plus avoiding buses, scrums, lack of sanitary facilities, rude, indignant and arrogant AF/ADP personnel, screens that don't work, etc, etc.

You do have to put up with the oft disgraceful security treatment but as they say "you can't win'em all".

Excellente journée

Sim

Last edited by Simon78300; Jul 13, 09 at 2:41 am
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Old Jul 13, 09, 3:12 am
  #48
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Well, this thread about suggestions to improvements to CDG operations now includes a comparison of CDG1 vs CDG2. Since the beginning of 2009, I've had about 40 flights from/into CDG2 and I have not experienced any significant disruption to my travel pattern. The fact that most of my destinations are served by 2F and 2E, rather than 2A/B or 2D probably helps.

There are, of course, things that I don't enjoy in CDG2 and improvements by ADP would be welcome :

- 2B should have been renovated earlier than scheduled, when half of it became a Schengen terminal; ADP should have renovated it instead of bringing into it U2 from CDG3
- 2A and 2C should also be improved; the plan for an additional airside area connecting them is welcome news
- 2D is more like an overcrowded bus station, and I especially dislike the audio system that is often inaudible in the gates area
- I don't really like the fact that regional aircrafts from Schengen destinations scheduled to arrive at 2D now arrive at 2G most of the time
- I am still waiting for the replacement to the Air France Pegase initiative for biometric scans, although the Acces n°1 lines are a nice substitute

On the other hand, there have been some improvements and I especially like:
- the airside transfer bus from 2D to 2E
- the premium check-in desks in 2D (in addition to the existing ones in 2C, 2E and 2F) as well as its associated Acces n°1 checkpoints
- the ease with which I breeze through 2E's baggage drop for premium customers and Acces n°1 (also on arrival) for immigration and security
- to a somewhat lesser extent, the same seamless experience in 2F1 & 2F2
- the fact that all my flights from/into 2E have had a jetbridge up to now (except for flights using regional aircrafts)
- the replacement of the iMacs with HP PCs in AF lounges
- relaxing in the 2E lounge while reading GEO and sipping a glass of chilled Poire Williams

Of course, there are non-functional escalators, moving walkways, or screens, just as in other airports; I have always managed to walk alongside the moving walkway, use stairs alongside the escalator or elevator, walk a few meters to another display screen; without any significant impact on my travel experience.

So is CDG1 better than CDG2 for some passengers ? Of course it is, if that is your experience. In my case, with the exception of two unexpected arrivals into 2G rather than 2D, CDG2 has been a pretty much seamless and enjoyable experience this year.

Last edited by JOUY31; Jul 13, 09 at 11:19 am
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Old Jul 13, 09, 3:37 am
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
On the other hand, there have been some improvements and I especially like:
- the airside transfer bus from 2D to 2E


Of course, there are non-functional escalators, moving walkways, or screens, just as in other airports; I have always managed to walk alongside the moving walkway, use stairs alongside the escalator or elevator, walk a few meters to another display screen; without any significant impact on my travel experience.
I flew CDG STU CDG last week, out of 2D. The outbound leg was "embarquement par bus" and the return delivered us to 2F when it was scheduled to arrive at 2D. There was no bus transfer meaning my taxi had to come and find me. When this happens it's really annoying as well as inconvenient as well as adding to my taxi fare!

I'll take your point about escalators, screens, elevators, but when you are flying into Germany, comparing CDG T2D to Munich MUCT2 are like comparing chalk and cheese. Certainly I've not noticed broken screens and escalators at MUCT2

Cheers

Sim
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Old Jul 13, 09, 3:52 am
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I won't compare CDG2 and CDG1, each one has its relative "strengths" (a big word in this context) and weaknesses.

However, if I may just respond to JOUY31's comments - not to disgress, but to shed a different light on things (from own experience):

Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
Of course, there are non-functional escalators, moving walkways, or screens, *just as in other airports*;
No airport that I know of has these issues with a 100% probability. OK, I haven't been to Harare or Bangui as of late, so my sample may be biased.

Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
I have always managed to walk alongside the moving walkway,
Good! When you do so next time, could you please also carry the two under-age kids plus the hand luggage that that involves? And when I had to walk the tunnel + stairs from Satellite 7 to the main rotunda at CDG1 on crutches it felt endless. The guy who pushed my wheelchair behind me also wished the moving walkway was working.

Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
use stairs alongside the escalator or elevator,
Phantastic, when you just arrived from vacation with a full family and a trolley full of luggage and you have to take the stairs to the underground car park.

Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
walk a few meters to another display screen;
...which is terribly convenient when you're sitting in the lounge on a Monday morning, you just got one free seat, you need to do work on your laptop - and get up every three minutes to find a working screen (if there is one) to see whether your flight is boarding.

Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
without any significant impact on my travel experience.
Agreed, unless you're in one of the above situations.

But frankly, if ADP puts in these things, it is not just for the fun or for making people moving a little more comfortable in those situations when things work - it is to make people moving possible at all rather than impossible when those things do not work. If ADP thinks that walking stairs or long distances is OK, why bother putting in walkways and elevators at all? Did the employees threat to strike because too much walking would be a burden on their health?

To tell an anecdote: during my recent "wheelchair period" (several months following an accident) I arrived in Munich one day. The person pushing my wheelchair told me how lucky I was that I just arrived now, because until 15 minutes ago one of the elevators was not working. "Imagine, we had to walk over to the other elevator leading to the exit" (=i.e., around 50-70 meters). "It took them almost 20 minutes to fix it! Me and my colleagues we discussed that we won't get the title of best European airport next year". I told her about Paris, and whilst first thinking I'd tell fairy tales she quickly understood that at least CDG wouldn't snap that first place.

But then again, one shouldn't compare apples with oranges, but stick to like-to-like (i.e., Paris with Harare and Bangui).
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Old Jul 13, 09, 4:24 am
  #51
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Originally Posted by creber View Post
I won't compare CDG2 and CDG1, each one has its relative "strengths" (a big word in this context) and weaknesses.

However, if I may just respond to JOUY31's comments - not to disgress, but to shed a different light on things (from own experience):



No airport that I know of has these issues with a 100% probability. OK, I haven't been to Harare or Bangui as of late, so my sample may be biased.
Well, in my experience of my two most travelled airports, excluding Harare and Bangui where I have yet to travel, CDG and LHR, this pretty much happens also at both. @Simon78300 : I would personally compare the most recent terminals to have a good understanding of trends at major hubs : LHR T5, MUC T2 with CDG 2E, or the oldest non-renovated ones, LHR T1 & T3 with CDG 2D, 2A and 2B, for instance.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 4:55 am
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
I would personally compare the most recent terminals to have a good understanding of trends at major hubs : LHR T5, MUC T2 with CDG 2E, or the oldest non-renovated ones, LHR T1 & T3 with CDG 2D, 2A and 2B, for instance.
I think that is about fair. Having said that, for some reason I prefer LHR T1 to CDG 2D and 2B (haven't been to 2A in ages, T3 I only have a scant recollection, it was OK). However, one shouldn't merely look at "the latest", but also at year of entry into service. For instance, the standard excuse for the poor state of CDGT1 is "but it's been put in service in 1974!". Right - and Frankfurt in 1972. Does Frankfurt feel like a concrete slab with a permanent strike crew and its intestins not working properly?

And to compare Munich T2 and CDG 2E, with pleasure: both CDG 2E and Munich T2 were supposed to open in June 2003.

  • Situation at Munich: everything was ready in March 2003. You could have used the terminal the next day. However, instead of doing that, they staged "simulations" with thousands of would-be passengers. To test pax flows, capacities at security, waiting rooms, lounges, shops. They tested the luggage handling facility. The airport opened on time in August 2003, and with the exception of some sliding doors to the jetbridges which took about 48 hours to work perfectly everything was smooth.
  • Situation at CDG 2E: I drove past the evening before the planned opening. Well, it still looked like a construction site. Then, the night before the opening, a commission walked through to inspect the building and its readiness to open to the public the next day. They had some doubts, and when a lamp fell in front of their feet, they had enough of it and said it couldn't open. The opening was postponed by one month. Then, in May 2004, part of the roof collapsed and killed four people. The entire airside jetty had to be torn down and rebuilt.

ADP/CDG apologists, your comments please!

Mine is that in sum you take any criteria you like, Paris loses the comparison. They just don't know how to plan, build and run an airport of that size. As simple as that.

The other thing to bear in my mind when comparing: there are some elements that are specific to each traveler. For instance, one shouldn't compare the circuit for a "well-trained" Platinum/BA EC Gold/SEN or HON with a first time traveler in Eco on Easyjet.

JOUY31, you dodged my previous comments (silent agreement?)
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:02 am
  #53
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Originally Posted by creber View Post
I think that is about fair. Having said that, for some reason I prefer LHR T1 to CDG 2D and 2B (haven't been to 2A in ages, T3 I only have a scant recollection, it was OK). However, one shouldn't merely look at "the latest", but also at year of entry into service. For instance, the standard excuse for the poor state of CDGT1 is "but it's been put in service in 1974!". Right - and Frankfurt in 1972. Does Frankfurt feel like a concrete slab with a permanent strike crew and its intestins not working properly?

And to compare Munich T2 and CDG 2E, with pleasure: both CDG 2E and Munich T2 were supposed to open in June 2003.

  • Situation at Munich: everything was ready in March 2005. You could have used the terminal the next day. However, instead of doing that, they staged "simulations" with thousands of would-be passengers. To test pax flows, capacities at security, waiting rooms, lounges, shops. They tested the luggage handling facility. The airport opened on time in August 2005, and with the exception of some sliding doors to the jetbridges which took about 48 hours to work perfectly everything was smooth.
  • Situation at CDG 2E: I drove past the evening before the planned opening. Well, it still looked like a construction site. Then, the night before the opening, a commission walked through to inspect the building and its readiness to open to the public the next day. They had some doubts, and when a lamp fell in front of their feet, they had enough of it and said it couldn't open. The opening was postponed by one month. Then, in May 2006, part of the roof collapsed and killed four people. The entire airside jetty had to be torn down and rebuilt.

ADP/CDG apologists, your comments please!
Well, I have no problem using MUC T2 or 2E today, so while I do understand the history, it does not impair my travel experience there .

Mine is that in sum you take any criteria you like, Paris loses the comparison. They just don't know how to plan, build and run an airport of that size. As simple as that.
Well, I actually seem to remember that we agreed that they are very good at long-term strategic planning (location, number of runways). On the other hand, one of the criteria I use is my personal travel experience (Ok, that is a bit self-centered ).


JOUY31, you dodged my previous comments (silent agreement?)
As I said, my comments were really about my personal experience. I have been fortunate enough not to be in one of the situations you describe, so I can only regret the unpleasantness you encountered, while relating my own enjoyable experience.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:06 am
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
Well, in my experience of my two most travelled airports, excluding Harare and Bangui where I have yet to travel, CDG and LHR, this pretty much happens also at both. @Simon78300 : I would personally compare the most recent terminals to have a good understanding of trends at major hubs : LHR T5, MUC T2 with CDG 2E, or the oldest non-renovated ones, LHR T1 & T3 with CDG 2D, 2A and 2B, for instance.
Do you get treated in a gratuitously derogatory fashion by the airline and/or airport staff at LHR T1/T2/T3, MUC T1, WAW, HAM, GOT, MAD, MXP, LIN,..........all unrenovated (or at least not the "latest high tech") terminals?

That's yet to happen to me outside CDG.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:08 am
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
Well, I have no problem using MUC T2 or 2E today, so while I do understand the history, it does not impair my travel experience there .

Well, I actually seem to remember that we agreed that they are very good at long-term strategic planning (location, number of runways). On the other hand, one of the criteria I use is my personal travel experience (Ok, that is a bit self-centered ).


As I said, my comments were really about my personal experience. I have been fortunate enough not to be in one of the situations you describe, so I can only regret the unpleasantness you encountered, while relating my own enjoyable experience.
OK, points taken.

For you individually it may work out, granted. However, I felt that one should measure the quality of airports also by their capacity to cater to the needs of all kinds of pax (and BTW: I take personal offence by your implication that I am unfortunate to travel with kids - guess that's not what you meant).

The history is revealing as that it points out the incapacity of getting things properly up and running on the building side of things.

True, CDG is good in terms of capacity and runways etc. air-side (although I know many a pilot who doesn't agree, but that's a different matter), but the topic at hand was pax experience in, to, from and between terminals. And there I maintain that they are doing a very underwhelming job at Paris. Some highlights, but lots of failures, too.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:10 am
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Originally Posted by Simon78300 View Post
At T1 you can ...
... jump into an Air France coach that will take you straight to Paris without stoping first at CDG2E/2F, CDG2B/2D and CDG1. Thanks Air France for making CDG1 passengers' experience more convenient than CDG2 passengers.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:12 am
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Off topic: FP and sim, you both have that "COBUS 3000" FFP note. Hilarious!

Is this fashionable now for flyertalkers to have that?

I'll change mine, too, now. Watch the space on the left.
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:17 am
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Originally Posted by Simon78300 View Post
Do you get treated in a gratuitously derogatory fashion by the airline and/or airport staff at LHR T1/T2/T3, MUC T1, WAW, HAM, GOT, MAD, MXP, LIN,..........all unrenovated (or at least not the "latest high tech" terminals?

That's yet to happen to me outside CDG.
I have had a rather limited experience in my travels of these gratuitously derogatory comments. So, I am not sure my experience is representative.

The most irritating one, as I have encountered it several times is the locally employed AFSL staff in LHR. I have seen some critical comments about staff employed at CDG on the basis of diversity; well it certainly applies to some of the AFSL staff who look down upon you when addressed in French (this is the only AF station where this happens to me) and resent being corrected. Staff at CDG are, in comparison, exquisite .

No problem at CDG, except once, when I was, admittedly, at fault and a little bit frantic.

Minor problems at GRZ, LHR, BCN, nothing worth mentioning. One really unpleasant encounter with AZ or AZ contracted staff for an unscheduled overnight in MXP.

Last edited by JOUY31; Jul 13, 09 at 11:12 am
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Old Jul 13, 09, 5:19 am
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Originally Posted by creber View Post
(and BTW: I take personal offence by your implication that I am unfortunate to travel with kids - guess that's not what you meant).
My apologies, this did not come out as intended. As you know, having kids is something looked upon very positively in France .
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Old Jul 13, 09, 7:14 am
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Originally Posted by creber View Post
Off topic: FP and sim, you both have that "COBUS 3000" FFP note. Hilarious!

Is this fashionable now for flyertalkers to have that?

I'll change mine, too, now. Watch the space on the left.
Ahh....but FP is a much higher class of "embarquement par bus" traveller. I see he is privy to being ferried in the Cobus 6000 ~ can't say I have seen one of those ~ whereas me with my lower and largely 2D based experiences of late is a lowly Cobus 3000 Plat. Also, for a mere 1100€ (CDG/MXP/CDG) one can't possibly hope for AF/ADP to transport such cheap fare paying passengers in a 6000......!

You'll all know the 3000 version however. It's the one where you can see the driver behind the protective glass screen, reading the newspaper/playing personal videogames/chatting up the AF ground staff dollybird as said driver pays more attention to his immediate environment and wellbeing as said driver does with your safe transportation and wellbeing, as a member of the public, to the plane.

Allez~

Sim
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