Richelieu

Yes, of course, I am really annoyed by the different thresholds for French/non-French residents, but, well, I can't say it's worsening with the new program. And not getting the 100% COS for business class everywhere is sad, but going from F+, it's an improvement, so we can't really complain about it. On the other hand, in the FD forum, such complains would be totally legitimate.

What would you advise to choose as a FF program for ST ?

slawecki

I have generated an excel spread sheet to compare all the ST programs.

If someone will send me the data ([email protected])
to fill in my excell chart, I will post it however anyone wants.

http://anything.slawecki.com/SKYTEAM/

clik on skyteam mileage comparison chart. please tag any errors.

Malaysia Air is not yet included.

hfly

Its especially bad as not only did KL do away with home country "apartheid" several years ago, but Dutch residents will not have such apartheid in the new system either. Which is the best ST programme? Hard to say (especially as we do not know all the FB stuff yet necessarily). Personally I'm Plat on both DL and KL and will be maintaining this again this year. in the future who knows, from a total mercenary point of view it has suited me well for several different reasons, getting PMU's on DL has been a very valuable benefit for me and I find the programme okay again after some of the DL's climbdowns last year. KL had some other advantages.

mogoy

Does anyone knows if our FP+ Red status continues to be valid until expiration date of our newly arrived cards ?

Since it's supposed to be valid until march 2006, I wonder if one could use it to enter ST lounges when flying Y, even after the FB launch.

As I will be demoted to FB gold and ST Elite (less than 90K miles in '04), I will no longer be entitled to those perks with FB and that's exactly what decided me to book on ST for my summer Y-class flights.

GrapeDane

I was trying to point out in an earlier post what the legal issue could be here. I'm not a lawyer, and there is probably a lot of "fine print" in the F+ rules. But AF has awarded us a status for the next 12 months, and I'm wondering if they can back down from the perks awarded? Any expect opinion on this?
Will they take the the old F+ away from us if we try to use it after the new program has started?

AshleyB

I think they surely can alter the terms as they see fit. At any rate there can be no realistic question of legal action. The sensible thing to do, particularly for French residents, is to switch to another programme. People who work for large companies with negotiated tarifs don't need to worry but for everyone else it would probably be better to change to LH *A or even AA.

GrapeDane

I'm not advocating any legal action, but was just questioning the legal - and even the moral aspect of the changes.
I'm sure that AF or F+ (since it is independent from AF) has checked all legal aspects of the merger. There are probably so many ways for them to change the program that it would be hopeless to fight it.

Anyway, if one don't like the changes, and believe there is a better program somewhere, please vote with your feet (or rather wallets).
After all, for a lot of people it is much more practical and easier to use AF (or any other home area power).
I hear a lot of complaints about the LH and BA frequent flier programs, so I don't know how good of alternative they are to AF.

pinkcity

I have a question about this ; Amex AF cardholders in France earn qualifying miles with their expenses, while it's not the case if I understood correctly for the NL KLM Amex cardholders ; if this difference continues with FB, it could explain a part of the "apartheid"?

Falco Peregrinus

Good question. I don't think this explains the 20.000 miles difference between french residents and non-french for status (gold and platinum) thresholds. It would be quite expensive for cardholders to get these 20.000 additional miles just to achieve status (besides, it requires the use of an AMEX Gold. Miles obtained with AMEX silver are not qualifying).

I believe Frequence Plus assumes that every French resident normally gets 20.000 miles from domestic routes and COI routes (Caraibes - Ocean Indien), that other nationalities members don't fly. This is not a realistic hypothesis.

I do not know so many people whose job requires both plenty of domestic travel AND european travel AND longhaul travel. As far as I am concerned, my job requires mostly european flights and a few longhaul flights every year. I obtained Rouge status quite easily last year but won't be able to achieve platinum. I am missing the... 20 domestic flights or so (and anyway the TGV is quite competitive, limiting the use of AF to very specific destinations: Nice, Toulouse, Brest, Strasbourg).

For those who don't know, there was even a small "domestic/colonial apartheid" for COI residents. They had (still have?) to fly more to get their FP Bleu status (not sure for Rouge...). This distinction goes on with the new FB rule stating that the lowest fares on COI flights WON'T earn miles. I guess this will make COI residents VERY unhappy.

Now, come on, Flying Blue. I have a few suggestions to improve the program. Raise the thresholds for Corsica inhabitants. Raise the threshold for those who live in or near Paris. They are suposed to fly more...

Anyway, even if you are likely to fly more from specific remote regions like Cayenne, Fort de France, Pointe à Pitre, Ajaccio , Paris , AF is not always the cheapest choice...

blairvanhorn

Well, as far as the legal aspect of it, I think most programs cover their derrières pretty well in the T&C you agree to when you sign on.

From the current AF/F+ T&C, for example:

The language in the new Flying Blah T&C that rcs85551 posted in the KL forum is quite similar.

As for the moral aspect of the changes, well, if Pangloss were running F+/FB you might have a case.

But in reality I don't think that AF has given it much thought, as evidenced by their very poor communication of many of the most important (and very basic) details of the new program that concern their customers, particularly their "elite" customers.

blairvanhorn

Well, if my memory is correct, the 20000 miles difference existed well before the introduction of the AMEX Gold card with qualifying miles (which was not more than three years ago, I believe) ... I'm sure Jouy can be more precsie about the exact dates.

Richelieu

Well, French resident who get to Rouge or Platinum level with mainly domestic flights are mainly business travellers who'll want flexible tickets and don't stay on week-ends. Those will be very profitable for AF, and I don't see the point of penalizing them, especially considering the fare discrepancy on short-haul flight. SXB-NTE-SXB in S in EUR 580, but can sell as low as 180 with restrictions and a WE inside... I could understand a higher threshold for France-based traveller if there were mileage earning opportunities on domestic routes, but cheap fares are already not yielding any miles, and high fares are very profitable for AF. I nest my tickets whenever I can because there is no way I can justify paying full fare only to get some miles... It's cheaper to discard the tickets if I must cancel than paying full fare.

I am really waiting the details of the mileage earning inside France on FB. Right now we earn:

• 500 qualifying miles as it's the minimum mileage
• 500 qualifying miles as class of service bonus (S/Y)

There is no mention on the FB document that was posted earlier about the domestic earning opportunities... If they lower the minimum mileage as they did with European flight, it will be even harder to get those "20000 miles", and another incentive to go for cheaper fares.

I can tell you they were unhappy with AF already... Mainly for suddenly dropping price when competition emerged, after complaining for years that these lines were unprofitable (justifying a very low quality of service on those routes, both for Eco and Business..)

ALEXIS2004

Did anyone from current F+ members already receive the FB kit?
From the KLM forum, it seems that many soon to be ex-FDers have received theirs.

blairvanhorn

No, and no one that I personally know who is in the F+ program has received one yet, either.

Concerto

Yes, I've received mine here in Germany. There's not an awful lot of information in it that you don't know already, and the material somehow lacks something; like Fréquence Plus, the marketing is such that you use it for what it is, but there's nothing that really catches your eye, like the name Flying Blue. I've never understood the total lack of intelligent creativity airlines have: for example Air Jet, Airlinair, Jet Airways, Twin Jet, or other absurd stupid names that a child of 3 could have created. The only thing about Flying Blue, is that you are flying, and, yes, the sky is blue. Mon dieu, I'm glad I work in the arts and not in this milieu.