Air France's strategic move away from Orly

Old Oct 10, 2023, 2:41 am
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Air France's strategic move away from Orly

Hi all,

I saw a rumour on Twitter where all AF domestic flights would be moved from ORY to CDG.

Anyone who has heard of this?
(please move Corsica flights as well so my intl connections get easier )
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 2:51 am
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There was an article about a week ago on this topic: https://www.linforme.com/transports-...issy_1055.html
But I don't have access to it

Personnaly I'm not a fan of this change: Orly will finally be easy to reach with the Line 14 in June, and is so much more efficient (almost no taxiing, less congestion, faster security, etc.), especially for Navette flights. CDG would be a lot more painful...
I guess the only upside is that in case of ATC strikes, there should only be minimal disruptions to AF operations.
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 3:01 am
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AF has 8-10 daily flights from CDG to NCE and around 15 from ORY.
Would having over 20 daily flights from CDG make sense?
Many pax are attracted by ORY location and its efficiency.

I am sure that Easyjet would love that if they can get the slots.
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 6:03 am
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I don't see how Terminal 2F can handle any more flights.......

Would really prefer to leave ORY as-is. It's more efficient in nearly every way compared to the behemoth that is Roissy.
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 8:21 am
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Originally Posted by mlin32
I don't see how Terminal 2F can handle any more flights.......

Would really prefer to leave ORY as-is. It's more efficient in nearly every way compared to the behemoth that is Roissy.
I like 2F, but you are right, I don't see how you can fit more flights into 2F. As lynxy and Brunos points out the efficency of ORY appeals to Paris-based people and the opening of Line 14 will reinforce that very much (in my case my Paris office being on Line 14 ORY will be even more practical when I am flying to Paris). I'd gain personally from having at least one or two of the 4 daily BIA flights going to CDG but ORY is still a big plus when you need to go into Paris. Leaving some frequencies at ORY and downsizing the presence in order to appease Paris-based people while facilitating connection traffic at CDG could work though.

Originally Posted by lynxy
There was an article about a week ago on this topic: https://www.linforme.com/transports-...issy_1055.html
But I don't have access to it
I subscribed to the free trial, in brief:

- The project is advancing, Ben Smith said on the sidelines of an AF Board that there would be announcements during the autumn.
- It is more a question of when than if, leaving ORY to be a Transavia only hub, says an AFKL Board member.
- The DOMTOM lines having been split between CDG and ORY (except CAY which is now a pure CDG route), logic would dictate that the short-haul lines also gets transferred
- Maintaining the ORY base is getting difficult, Anne Rigail says think twice before buying property in the south of Paris, the future of Air France at Orly is not bright. The transfer could start as soon as end of 2023.
- Scenarios for transfers of Corsica flights + Navettes and connections to DOMTOM flights to be studied (The Corsica public service delegation being up for renewal with a start date in January 2024, it could be transferred quickly)
- Group objectives are clear, they want to make drastic savings on a short-haul segment that is only back to 75% of pre-covid earnings. Anne Rigail said to Le Figaro at the end of September: "In 2019, we made over 250 millions of euros in losses on this point-to-point network. Even having reduced capacity by 40%, our losses are consequential.
- Moving out of ORY after over 70 years of presence and with 600 employees left on base will be difficult, a union leader says that a number of years of prior notice is yet to be negotiated, Air France will not be leaving fully next year.
- Air France also does not want to abandon slots to the competition, and wants Transavia to take over their slots, but it will take time in order to control Transavia's growth
- The CFDT union wants Transavia planes to be handled by AF staff at ORY, saying that group planes have to be handled by group employees. Negotiations are possible according to CFDT, taking example in the negotiation with AF pilots in order to pilot Transavia planes.


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Old Oct 10, 2023, 3:45 pm
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Leaving ORY would be a big mistake IMO. However, when you see what remains from AF domestic network, it's a total shame. They may complain that the number of pax is decreasing, but they stop routes, decrease frequencies and increase prices up to a point where pax just give up and take another airline or the train. They have also shoot themselves in the feet when they have transferred some ORY routes to TO without AF code-sharing, without benefits for FB status members and leading to subscription cards (Abonns) unusable for many pax living in those stations transferred to TO. We have reached sometimes totally ridiculous situations for people travelling Province-ORY-DOM/TOM flights with the 1st segment operated by TO without bags interlining to AF. So, I am in the opinion that AF has a big responsibility in the shrinking of the domestic network. Add to this the politician madness that have lead to axing routes like ORY-BOD...oh but silly me...this is to save the planet .

We always hear ORY is much convenient than CDG. I have always disagreed with this statement when said in general, because it all depends where you go. But the mtro line 14 coming soon to ORY, it's going to be a game changer for ORY, especially fro people living on the right bank.
And I agree with what other posters have said : I don't see how CDG could absorb this additional traffic.
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Last edited by Goldorak; Oct 11, 2023 at 12:10 am
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 4:20 pm
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Please no. This would be the opposite of what I was always dreaming would happen, i.e. more flights to ORY. I happily used the JFK service (when it existed), the flight to SXM (when it existed), domestic French connections (when there were still going to places like Biarritz, Brest, Bordeauy; and still today for Nice and Toulouse), and I was even booked (but ended up not flying) on ORY-MUC. So I was hoping they‘d add more flights to more destinations. ORY is easier to navigate for pax, less delay-prone, and has a very nice nostalgic feel to it. Much easier to get to.

Please re-consider.

A Left-Banker
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Old Oct 10, 2023, 4:42 pm
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Quite surprising news, I thought ORY had found its niche in those point to point routes. Corsica, Navette, FDF/PTP/RUN, even JFK and shorthaul business routes like MUC and MAD.

They must really be bleeding money across the network. I really hope they have a shift of strategy and start integrating TO like Jetstar with perks exclusively for Flyingblue elites and more extensive codesharing.

2F wont be able to absorb the volume of Navette flights and definitely wont be able to have a similar system of dedicated queues. I wonder if theyd take over a few gates over in 2D or expand 2G. Two solutions that dont seem ideal at all.

Consolidating at CDG will definitely result in cost savings but overall AF will probably lose passengers to competitors. Line 14 would have really changed everything in terms of convenience. Getting to central Paris in 20-25 mins on a one seat ride.

I suspect part of it is also because they want to grow TO even more and this is part of that overall strategy. Still sad to see this happen though, I guess BA will be the only European airline left with split operations in the same city.
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Old Oct 17, 2023, 1:08 pm
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Le Monde has just published an article outlining how the transfer of Orly will take place over 2 years minimum (in order to transfer slots to Transavia). It is supposed to be announced tomorrow Wednesday 18th by Ben Smith to AF employees.

https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/arti...source=default

IMHO it is not the right decision, but O/D traffic with Paris seems to be less important than keeping the transfer flow well fed. Pre Covid strategy with European destinations from Orly looked promising for Orlys future but doubling down on domestic only from Orly when LH is leaning into building up at ORY (Plus TP & IBs historical presence, TP having inaugurated a navette service to LIS), was just creating the conditions of Orlys doom.

I believe most of the navette frequencies will be slashed given the number of those flights already at CDG, only needing to make room for Corsica bound flights (if the PSO renewal goes through), which would represent outside of the summer peak only 10-12 extra daily flights to fit in.

AF & ADP will need to address quickly the issue of accessing CDG from Paris however, but im probably too optimistic
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Old Oct 17, 2023, 4:40 pm
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Damn.

if they replace the AF Navette flights by Transavia *AND* put in place convenience benefits for FB status passengers (fast track security, priority boarding, access to better seats, some sort of lounge) then thats ok with me. Not great, but ok.

However, if its merely stopping flights from ORY and replacing some of them by CDG flights, then I wont be happy. At all. CDG 2F is ok for FB Elites (and actually good for Ultis). But its terrible to get to and from. 1 hour on the road for a 1 hour domestic flight, thats not a great value prop
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Old Oct 18, 2023, 2:23 am
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Honestly, like Goldorak mentioned above, the steep fall in number of domestic passengers can also be attributed to AF jacking up prices while cutting frequencies (and in the case of TO, benefits) for domestic metropolitan flights. Plus the gouvernement hasn't helped things by going public about cutting domestic flights to save the planet. So how about shelling out more money to compensate all the people who will be made redundant ?

Really disappointing that AF continues to neglect its home market (arguably the most important) by leaving Orly.

Next thing AF will say is that they're going to axe its Hop ! provincial routes in the name of sustainability
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Old Oct 18, 2023, 2:48 am
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Another article this morning, this time from Les Echos, where Anne Rigail says the following:

- Drastic reduction in demand from Orly due to ESG & remote working policies, down 40% from 2019, with same-day return flights down 60%.
- AF will remain at Orly until summer 2026, CDG to regions to be strengthened in response. Current domestic navette offering will be maintained at 90% of current levels.
- Personnel to be transferred to CDG, no forced departures.
- Corsica flights to remain at ORY for time being, 70 AF staff will be retained at ORY for those flights operated with XK/AF JV.
- Transavia will be flying NCE/TLS/MRS from Orly, Anne Rigail says that they will work on better recognising status with Transavia without going into details.

Personal note - for me I'll be the least affected as the Corsica status quo is maintained if the PSO renewal goes to AF/XK (2024-2027), but it still puts us in a position where our onwards connectivity towards the rest of France / Europe / World depends on an ORY-CDG transfer with all that it entails... As San Gottardo points out it's an OK situation but not a great one...
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Old Oct 18, 2023, 3:54 am
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Le Bus Direct is dead and not coming back, right?
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Old Oct 18, 2023, 8:44 am
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Transfer from AF to Transavia will be painful in La Navette airports like NCE.

Of course, there will be industrial action.

AF has a significant clientele using various discount cards (senior, youth,..) with attractive fare conditions. If HV does not keep those, it will lose to U2.

AF and HV products are very different. I understand that AF (to NCE) might not be making much money despite high loads, because of AF cost structure. But replacing by HV is moving into unchartered territory, unless they can keep a lid on ORY slots allocated to U2.

Will AF keep some international flights from NCE (like LHR) or simply disappear from NCE.

The next few years will be difficult.
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Old Oct 18, 2023, 10:32 am
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
Le Bus Direct is dead and not coming back, right?
Yes, and today's announcement reduces even further the need for that service unfortunately.
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