AF258 CDG-SGN 01NOV denied entering Russian airspace

Old Nov 2, 18, 3:13 am
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AF258 CDG-SGN 01NOV denied entering Russian airspace

Yesterday, flight AF258 bound to SGN had to circle over Belarus and later return to CDG because Russia didn't give clearance for entry into its airspace.
AF says they are investigating on the problem that could come form flight plan.

I wonder if that falls into extraordinary circumstances for compensation.
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Old Nov 2, 18, 3:25 am
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Originally Posted by bodory View Post
I wonder if that falls into extraordinary circumstances for compensation.
Difficult to say without more details. If it is a mistake by AF in submitting the flight plans or some other mishap attributable to AF or a misfunctioning of AF systems, then I would have thought that there was no ext.circs. OTOH, if everything was submitted correctly and Russia either mistakenly or arbitrarily refused entry, I would have thought that it would be highly likely to be an ext. circ.
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Old Nov 2, 18, 3:35 am
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Originally Posted by bodory View Post
Yesterday, flight AF258 bound to SGN had to circle over Belarus and later return to CDG because Russia didn't give clearance for entry into its airspace.
AF says they are investigating on the problem that could come form flight plan.

I wonder if that falls into extraordinary circumstances for compensation.
better to wait clear statement from russian authorities and/or AF, then we can discuss about compensation
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Old Nov 2, 18, 3:50 am
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Surprised it couldn't route south of the Himalayas on a similar route many airlines use to BKK that avoid Russian airspace
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Old Nov 2, 18, 3:55 am
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Originally Posted by ajeleonard View Post
Surprised it couldn't route south of the Himalayas on a similar route many airlines use to BKK that avoid Russian airspace
flying by plane is not like driving your car .

The airlines who need/want to avoid russian airspace use more fuel and need to schedule access to airspace of many countries prior to departure , this is well planned and calculated before scheduling whatever flight . The longer the flight , more money airline will spend

So you can just say ''ohh there is traffic or the road is blocked so i can change my journey and my gps will tell me where to go''

Its only since end of 20th century that russia opened its airspace to foreign airlines , which was even way bigger during USSR

[edit] = according to french newspapers its because of an IT bug caused by daylight saving time
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Last edited by fifty_two; Nov 2, 18 at 6:55 am
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Old Nov 2, 18, 12:50 pm
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Originally Posted by ajeleonard View Post
Surprised it couldn't route south of the Himalayas on a similar route many airlines use to BKK that avoid Russian airspace
Sure, I had these flights from SE Asia where they clearly avoided Russia by flying over Kazachstan, Georgia, and the Black Sea. But that is planned. Once you are en route over Bjelorussia, and announce entering Russian airspace, and then are refused......that would imply flying 100s if not more miles South to circumvent Russia, and I guess time wise or fuel wise that was no option, not to mention the lack of flight plan for this with all these other countries you would cross...
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Old Nov 2, 18, 8:41 pm
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If anyone affected, I guess that it would be best to first search whether other AF flights to Asia were affected.that day. Especially early afternoon departures. If not, then it must be that AF did not fill the proper paperwork.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 11:44 am
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Originally Posted by fifty_two View Post
flying by plane is not like driving your car .
Just checked Flightradar24 and this flight does take the route south of the Himalayas on 27OCT, 30OCT and 03NOV. Could not see flight history earlier than those. It's interesting an IT error would cause this kind of problem: changing route to what presumably has never been flown before.
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Old Nov 4, 18, 6:43 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Difficult to say without more details. If it is a mistake by AF in submitting the flight plans or some other mishap attributable to AF or a misfunctioning of AF systems, then I would have thought that there was no ext.circs. OTOH, if everything was submitted correctly and Russia either mistakenly or arbitrarily refused entry, I would have thought that it would be highly likely to be an ext. circ.
Internal AF sources say that the airline very recently decided to avoid Iran airspace because of US sanctions. Among affected flights is AF258 and the natural updated routing is going northerly, i.e. through Russia.

Last edited by bodory; Nov 4, 18 at 6:49 pm
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Old Nov 5, 18, 12:03 am
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Originally Posted by bodory View Post
Internal AF sources say that the airline very recently decided to avoid Iran airspace because of US sanctions. Among affected flights is AF258 and the natural updated routing is going northerly, i.e. through Russia.
That’s indeed a very valid reason to change the flight path, and not only for AF as I think most western airlines will struggle to pay fees to Iran ATC.
On my very recent flight to DXB on AF, I noticed that we never flew over Iran but always above the Persian gulf. (While before, I think we were flying over Iran). But I noticed also we flew over Iraq and that was new to me too. Syrian airspace is still avoided.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 3:59 pm
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Originally Posted by bodory View Post
Internal AF sources say that the airline very recently decided to avoid Iran airspace because of US sanctions. Among affected flights is AF258 and the natural updated routing is going northerly, i.e. through Russia.
But such a decision would not be a spur of the moment decision while the aircraft is in flight and would not therefore provide an explanation as to why the aircraft would have had to turn back from Belarus. A flight plan would have been submitted and the relevant authorizations sought before the flight left Paris. If they were not, that would look like something that would not amount to an ext.circ. OTOH, if they were and Russia suddenly decided to refuse entry/revoke an authorization for no clear reason, that would be more likely to be an ext. circ.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 6:24 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
But such a decision would not be a spur of the moment decision while the aircraft is in flight and would not therefore provide an explanation as to why the aircraft would have had to turn back from Belarus. A flight plan would have been submitted and the relevant authorizations sought before the flight left Paris. If they were not, that would look like something that would not amount to an ext.circ. OTOH, if they were and Russia suddenly decided to refuse entry/revoke an authorization for no clear reason, that would be more likely to be an ext. circ.
Indeed, seems a mix up at AF submitting flight document.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 11:27 pm
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Old Nov 6, 18, 12:55 am
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I was going to say, it sounded like something didn’t get filed properly in terms of paperwork. Not much more to it than that. Why did the plane land at Warsaw (according to the article) and not go back to Paris?

Of course, I’m following this because I am in Russia now!
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Old Nov 7, 18, 2:57 am
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Apparently it was a planning error from the dispatch operation:
Mr. Smith promised to reorganize the dispatch operations, as quoted from the Twitter Acount of Gilles Laurent, former DGOA and AF 777 Captain.

Last edited by Err..France; Nov 7, 18 at 2:59 am Reason: Url quote
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