Unpleasant experience: what to do? [merged]
 

Dear co-fliers,

I had an unpleasant experience aboard the AF084 (CDG-SFO), and I could use some advice. I'm only FB Silver (a couple of miles from Gold) on AF, while I'm Million Mile on American, and Premier 1K on United, but for the last 6 months I've been flying AF a fair amount, & I was very impressed with how they treated me while I was on crutches for hip pain due to arthritis. I finally had surgery in early July to replace the hip (I'm now a certified cyborg, made of flesh and blood . . . and titanium and ceramic, and I even got to hold that bloody head of the femur in my hand after they sawed it off and replaced it!), and my recovery has gone pretty well.

I was asked to come to SF for some consulting 5 weeks after the surgery. To do the work I do, you have to be pretty tough, and I am (I had the surgery without general anesthetic, and was privileged to watch the surgeon saw off body parts, use an electric drill on my bones, hammer new titanium pieces into those drilled holes, chisel off the rough edges, before they passed me the bloody and worn-down head of the femur to examine). The surgeon's my type of guy and said it was fine to fly just as long as I had a perfectly horizontal bed-seat, so that (a) I wasn't putting weight on the leg for 11 hours (because the femur has not yet grown around the titanium, and one has to be careful not to push the titanium out of place), (b) wasn't keeping the leg bent for a long period of time (because that can cut off the circulation, which increases the risk of blood clots, which is a risk for quite some time after the surgery), and (c) was able to change position while lying down, once again in order to reduce the very real risk of deep vein thrombosis, which in turn can lead to a brain or heart aneurism!

These 3 conditions aren't new - that's what I'm living with for the first months of recovery, and it's changed how I sit at a desk, and spend time walking and biking around town, and how I sleep. I just have to be careful. And I trusted Air France to work with me, because I had had such good experiences with Saphir (their disability program). And I know my own tremendous capacity for information finding, so I figured AF and I were a team - we'd make this work. And the non-profit that hired me to consult in SF is a good egg, and I wanted to help them by standing up at this event.

In that vein I set about to make sure that the seat configuration would fit my needs, AKA a (as AF puts it) "perfectly horizontal lie-flat bed".Now, AF is not known for the ease of navigation of their website (as I'm sure you all know) and after an hour or two of searching and finding multiple cabin layouts for this particular flight on this particular day, each of which was incompatible with the others, I decided to call. I called AF and explained all of the info I explained to you above, and the AF phone representative said that "promis juré" (basically, "cross my heart and hope to die") that the configuration was perfectly horizontal lie-flat beds (he also shared his grandmother's hip surgery story, but that seems to happen a lot these days!). And so I set off.

Well, once in the plane, I found out that the rep was wrong, and that the seats were angled-flat, which absolutely doesn't work. Let me explain why, as this seems to be difficult for folks to understand: you know how if you're a big guy (or even a little guy) it's hard not to slide down that angled seat? And, if you're a frequent flier and you're stuck in one of these things you probably ask for a bunch of blankets to wedge under your feet so you don't slide? Well, imagine spending 11 hours with your feet pressed against the foot rest (if you're a big guy) or pressed against the blankets that the flight attendant kindly handled you. Now imagine the weight that wedging yourself in puts on your legs. That's a problem if your leg is made of a titanium stem hammered into a hole in your marrow, and you don't want the titanium to get pushed deeper into the bone. And imagine that the inability to shift around on that seat could make the blood pool in your legs, and dry up into clots, which then travel up to your brain. Not A Good Thing. Got it?

The flight attendant was super-understanding in business (he said that I should never trust a phone agent because they don't fly a lot and don't know what the difference between the seats is, which didn't exactly inspire confidence!), and took me down to see the purser so I could get my luggage pulled, and get onto the alternative flight from Paris, that leaves a couple of hours later, on a 777 with all lie-flat seats in business (I had looked at that flight earlier, but since the rep had promised that the 380 was lie-flat, I didn't think it was necessary to pay to switch flights). The person called ground staff to come and lead me to pick up my luggage and register me for the next flight. Meanwhile the pilot joined us. I asked the purser if I could simply upgrade to La Première (by this point I was pretty stressed, and was willing to do anything necessary just to be on our way (like everybody else I had places to be and people to see in SF - and wanted to get to the part of the flight where there was champagne and a good meal), and in a seat that wouldn't compromise my health. The purser said First was full . . . and then ground staff showed up and said that the later flight, on the 777 was full!

Meanwhile I absolutely had to get to SF that night, since the gig was the next day and this poor non-profit had already spent a ton on tickets, and so I was freaking out. This is where things got unpleasant. The purser started yelling at me for not having told the agent on the phone to put an annotation that I had a medical condition in my reservation (now, remember that the phone agent and I had spent 40 minutes discussing his grandmother's hip surgery - if he didn't put in a notation, then he was just lost in reverie about his dear old grandma - because he had all the info) . I had explained to the phone agent WHY I needed a lie-flat seat (and my AF history shows that I used Saphir disability services for 4 months). But the purser kept saying it again and again. And then the pilot broke in and said - in a very inappropriate aggressive tone of voice - that I had to make a decision immediately because it was expensive to take off late and that the "money will be taken out of my own pocket".

I understand that the poor pilot is just trying to make his ends of month, just like the rest of us. But in public, it's not exactly the kind of conversation style or content that makes AF look good! Not exactly a shining example of AF's "Huit Engagements".

Eventually I said I would simply walk around for 11 hours (rather than doing the work I was supposed to do in prep for the consulting!). I asked if my luggage was still onboard, and the ground staff said he would load it, and so I went back upstairs. I was actually shaking, and pretty bummed at how I had been treated - at the lack of professionalism, of sympathy - of simple humanity. I guess I had high expectations of AF - thought they were an airline that prized human connection (unlike some of the other airlines where I spend my time!).

Before we took off I asked the flight attendant who had taken me downstairs to check with the pilot about whether my luggage had been loaded, and he came back with his tablet and said it absolutely had been load. For the rest of the flight the flight attendants in business were super nice, and were tolerant of my walking around (although I had to sit way more than I was comfortable with because of the turbulence. And they asked how I was feeling, which was nice. Of course my hip hurt more and more, which made things even harder.

So, we arrive at SFO and . . . my luggage never appears. Eventually they call my name and say my "luggage didn't make it"!! Now remember that I was promised that the luggage had been loaded and there was no misunderstanding their promise - and this means they lied. And I don't expect to be lied to.

Once at the hotel I start to wonder about what to do on the way back to Paris - what if it's the same configuration?? So I use Facebook Messenger to write AF and ask about the configuration. I get 3 messages - and this is just amazing to me, and it would be laughable, if it weren't another example of AF not having its act together.

The first text (see the link) from them says the configuration is "perfectly horizontal flat bed with the new cocoon seats. Here's a screen shot of their text to me: <<https://prnt.sc/khjh7v>>

I write back and ask if they are totally sure, and they say, yes, and that I can follow this link to see for myself. Here's the screen shot, which sends me to a page that says the seats are NOT perfectly flat, but angled - at which point I'm really confused: <https://prnt.sc/khjhkv>

So, I text again and say how confusing this is, and could they please double check . . . and they say, no, really, it's cocoon seats with perfectly horizontal lie-flat beds. Their text is here: <https://prnt.sc/khjhyv>

This would almost be funny, except this is my health we're talking about. I mean, this is AF staff - presumably they have access to plane configurations, no? I write again and say I'm worried, and explain why this is so important, and they say, well, actually it's angled seats!!

And I'm lucky as far as things go. There are people a lot worse off. Shouldn't the passenger be able to count on accurate honest information about the seat configuration of his / her flight??

I'm pretty surprised at how bad the customer service is, and how unprofessional and cavalier their attitude has been. And now I'm faced with a flight home that may or may once again be 11 hours of fear for my health, and intense pain. And nobody has offered me any compensation for any of this, or even sympathy. Not even accurate information!

I don't write often to this forum, however I'm hoping for some advice - how to get honest accurate information about cabin configurations (and what else am I not getting accurate info about? And I'm somebody who can navigate info online. What about the poor sods who can't look at 3 sites and triangulate what they find there).

So, advice: what's the most accurate source for cabin config for a particular flight? Should I expect compensation for the inaccurate information I was provided, the lying about my luggage, the poor behavior in interacting with me? What are my options for the return flight in terms of other routings?

Sorry for the long post. I needed to vent.

Jaycey

Hi, sorry to hear you got unpleasant experience, but I'm afraid you're not entitled to pretty much any compensation. I understand you have a medical issue for requiring a full flatbed seat, however:

1) Booking business class ticket doesn't guarantee having flat bed seats - even if you switched to 777, it still could end up having angled seats (there can be last-minute aircraft switch). The only way to have business class flat-bed seats guaranteed is to book with another airline with all of their long haul fleet configured with lie flat seats (such as Delta).

However I find it quite important to notify the airline with the details of your condition - since there's still, however unlikely, a chance that business cabin is oversold and you could end up being downgraded. Or if there's an equipment change from 777 with flat-beds (BEST cabin) to 777 with angle-flat seats (NEV4).

2) For delayed baggage - you can ask them to reimburse for your essential expenses (although if you tried to pull it, they might say that you caused the delay).

3) For upgrading to P - you can change the reservation and pay up the fee + price difference OR if you get "lucky", you'll get an upgrade offer (the one I got for SFO-CDG was for $2700 in 777, I didn't take it).

Otherwise what I'd say in general - yes, we're only humans and make mistakes but on the other hand, isn't it better to do more research about the cabins yourself (especially if you were in doubt) beforehand? I totally understand that you were freaking out at the time of the incident - but if you think back about it later, do you see a reasonable solution that the staff could achieve when there wasn't any available seat?

I understand that you are upset but cross posting is not allowed on FT. I have alerted a mod to merge as you have started to get responses in your other thread.

Dear Sjondorn,

Thank you for your kind reply. I know you're a knowledgable AF flier, and so I appreciate your perspective. In fact, I even do wonder what makes you say that I would need to upgrade to a P ticket, and pay up the fee + price difference? Did I give any information about my fare class? Are you actually AF staff?

The basic issue that is at stake here, is the lack of professionalism of the AF personnel, and their lack of empathy - despite their "8 engagements" that they give so much press to. For two reasons: from a business perspective It's so important to stick to one's stated philosophy - not to make an ad campaign and then not follow through with the promises one makes. And from a human perspective it's important to be a moral good person - not to put the money from one's pocket before a passengers medical status, to try to always take the perspective of the person one is working with.

To respond to your suggestions, you suggest that it would be better to do more research about the cabins as a passenger beforehand, and I agree 100%! That's why I looked at seat maps and equipment online extensively and, when that wasn't clear, why I called AF. What I don't understand is why, when I called AF, the phone agent would say "promis juré" that the configuration was flat-bed. If he wasn't sure, shouldn't he have said "I can't promise that it will be one or the other"? In which case I could have switched to the 777 flight that leaves later in the day. I would have thought that the employee of a business that is in the public eye as much as AF is, should never promise something that s/he can't deliver - it gives a bad reputation to the organization I think - that is certainly the case here. And just in case it wasn't bad enough that he did that by phone beforehand, exactly the same thing happened yesterday by Facebook text message, as I posted - "yes it is the perfectly horizontal seat-beds" and even when I pointed out that the online seat map showed that it wasn't, "yes it is the cocoon perfectly horizontal seat-beds" (these are in the screen shots that I posted of my Facebook Messenger conversation with AF concerning the return flight).

And, of course, as I said in my post, I did notify the airline of my condition - I told the phone agent exactly why it was so important for me to know the configuration of the business class cabin - I told him about the surgery and about the potential ramifications if the seat were not flat. I gave every possible detail of my medical condition to Air France days before I took the flight (and the agent was very sweet and interested, and told me about the hip surgery that his grandmother had).

As for what the staff might of done when we weree in the aircraft: well, mostly, what they could have done differently, is to be sympathetic, to apologize for the phone agent's inappropriate behavior, to think through with me what the available options were. That would have gone such a long way towards making me feel better. They also could have looked into flights on other airlines that they could have written me over to (there are other options, even on KLM). They could have made me feel as if my situation mattered to them, as opposed to making me feel as if I was simply an obstruction - an obstacle to the pilot leaving on time!

I hope I'm not being too harsh here. I don't mean to be. However, I think that from both a business and human perspective, AF could have done better, and they could do better now concerning my return flight, so that I can report on their behavior in a positive light. Thank you once again for your thoughts, which I do very much appreciate.

Thanks Finkface - I don't know what cross-posting is, but it sounds terrible, and I'm glad you've put a stop to it!

https://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#crossposting

6. Cross-Posting
Don't post your topic more than once. Duplicate threads or posts will be deleted, combined or locked. You may cross reference a post in another forum. For example, if you are questioning whether American Airlines or United Airlines may be the best fit for you, post the primary question in perhaps the American forum and then post a link to that thread in the United forum. An exception to this rule includes posts related to charitable activities, please see Rule 11 — Charitable Posts.

You’re welcome. :rolleyes:

For what it is worth, here is my own two cents to this very unfortunate story. I must agree with Goldorak that there is no ground whatsoever for compensation here. The point here is not to add stigmatization to injury, but merely to remind,
​​given the AF fleet and the (still limited) number of retrofitted aircraft with the BEST cabin, that there is a rather high probability that you will be flying with a non-fully-reclinable (180°) seat. I also agree with Goldorak that pursers hear all kinds of outlandish stories to support requests for freebies and upgrades to the next class of service, and have a hard time to separate the chaff from the wheat. As a matter of principle, I would advocate to not fly after a major surgery, however important your commitment. You chose otherwise, accepting the risks associated to your decision. That said, I wish you a prompt recovery and hope you will have a more enjoyable experience on your upcoming AFKL flights.

Macaron54

Well, JayCee...

while I can see why you are upset, I think part of the issue is self inflicted:

1) After such a surgery, wait to heal up. No business (for profit or not) is worth risking you health that way.

2) If you absolutely have to travel (and I'm not sure 5 days of consulting job would qualify for me as "I absolutely have to", -> 1), check the options before. All here could have told you AF has two different seat configurations. Other carriers have only lie-flats, e.g. LH or SK, but even then -> 3

3) Anyhow, you realize there is always a chance for equipment failure, e.g. broken seat or broken plane? If the seat is broken, you most probably would find somebody to switch seats but you might be in a plane where nobody cares and be stuck as well. While the airline would usually send some miles/points your way... they can't do to much once in the air (which is the point in time where you realize the seat won't go down all the way...). If they cancel the flight you might get rebooked on any other partner airline which might have a plane with angled seats. You might protest and be send some other way, but that could mean 2 days delay on a busy route in a busy time.

3) Even with a full lie-flat... they are not that comfortable! I wouldn't feel to sure, that they are padded and roomy enough to make you feel well for a 11th hour flight.

4) Traveling puts a lot of stress on the body, waking around the airport, long sitting in waiting areas (or lounges), strapped into the seat, coping with timezone changes, ground transportation... Then a 5 days on-site workshop with clients? in meeting rooms all day, just working lunches and in the evening probably out for entertainment? All of that not that great for recovering after a major surgery. -> 1

While I think, you should have said: "Sorry, not this time gents, I need to recover from surgery but we'll send xyz who can help you" and then perhaps schedule some conference calls in the evening to sync up, I still think that AF customer service could have handled it better. But in all honesty, airline employees often hear a lot of stories about why somebody needs X. And I guess they have learned to just say "Yeah yeah, somebody will take care" or to think "Again someone who wants more what he paid for, producing some medical reasoning which is impossible for me to check".

All over, apart from getting reimbursed for toiletries you bought in SFO while waiting for your luggage AF doesn't owe you anything. You bought a ticket from CDG-SFO-CDG in business class, they transported you CDG-SFO-CDG in business class. No airlines gives a equipment guarantee, just a guarantee to go from A to B in the ticketed class of service.

Just to show you some token of appreciation they might throw some miles over, but certainly not a lot.

And about those "8 engagements that they give so much press to"... that is marketing! And that how you should look at it. As long as something is not written down in the Terms of Service/Carriage, it might not happen.

A point of note -- If I'm not mistaken you ask in your message to the customer service whether or not the flight will be on an A380-900 vs an A380-800. There is no such thing as a -900. This may have confused the rep. The reps are also trained to sell the seat -- and an angled-lie-flat such as in the older business class is considered to be "flat".

In any case aren't the business seats on the A380 flat but simply at an angle to the floor? I would expect that to meet the surgeon's requirements, does it not?

It seems that at least initially the crew made a very reasonable effort to see what options are available. Then time went on, and a decision needed to be taken, and they were not so cool at that point. I understand the pressure, everyone is waiting (how long before the crew runs out of time for this flight?) but still, nobody should "yell" at you.

You were aware of the absolute need of a horizontal bed, but apparently were not prepared in advance, what you would do if the seat is not OK. You then need to decide "under pressure", probably not used to do this (not many people can) and this also contributed to degrading the situation.

However ... if indeed you have made perfectly clear, on the phone, that you needed a horizontal seat, AND you were given the wrong information, then I think Air France owes you an explanation. More than an excuse, a real explanation (in detail).

The one thing I would try to learn (for myself) is not allow myself to decide under pressure ... If in doubt, there should be no doubt, end of story. Easier said than done...

Having flown KLM's older slippery slope product and new flat seats I was also a bit puzzled - apparently OP was afraid that having to use one or both of the feet to avoid slipping down would result in a level of pressure that was not allowed. But then in my memory the difference is so minor, and I assume the operation only related to one leg. If the difference between 180 degrees and maybe 170 degrees flat already was a major problem, what about all kind of risks you have when moving around for days in SF for this meeting? Where I think all of us sympathise with the OP's health situation and wish a speedy recovery, undertaking a major travel in not optimal health conditions requiring all kinds mitigating measures in place simply gives more chances on a stressful situation if something does not work out as expected, as when you do the same travel when fully recovered. Of course I see what problem (and indeed, fear) the OP faced, but also the dilemma of the AF crew who had 400+ other customers on that flight and who wanted to be in time in SFO.

This might be one of the funniest things I've read on FT.