Air France PE vs Lufthansa PE
Jul 28, 2018, 5:04 am
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
I wonder how much of this is just in people's heads.
Geometrically, there's no difference between the seat back angling backward, or the seat cushion sliding forward while the headrest stays longitudinally in place, but just slides down. Either way you end up with a seat moving from this: _ to this: \_.
Now, if the fixed seat shell on the AF seat results in less of an angle between the seat cushion and seat back because there's simply less usable space with the same seat pitch because of the fixed shell, then I can see why AF would be less comfortable. But the reason would not be related to the recline mechanism, but to the fact that recline is limited due to the additional space of the seat shell.
That said, there is clearly a benefit of having that hard shell in that the person in front of you doesn't recline into your space/face.
FWIW, here are two pics of the AF and LH PE seats in recline. It looks like the LH seat may recline more (a bit hard to tell for sure), but the AF seat is certainly reclined.
Geometrically, there's no difference between the seat back angling backward, or the seat cushion sliding forward while the headrest stays longitudinally in place, but just slides down. Either way you end up with a seat moving from this: _ to this: \_.
Now, if the fixed seat shell on the AF seat results in less of an angle between the seat cushion and seat back because there's simply less usable space with the same seat pitch because of the fixed shell, then I can see why AF would be less comfortable. But the reason would not be related to the recline mechanism, but to the fact that recline is limited due to the additional space of the seat shell.
That said, there is clearly a benefit of having that hard shell in that the person in front of you doesn't recline into your space/face.
FWIW, here are two pics of the AF and LH PE seats in recline. It looks like the LH seat may recline more (a bit hard to tell for sure), but the AF seat is certainly reclined.
The shell seat slides a little bit, but there is not much knee space for sliding, and poor lumbar support.
The LH PE seat (as well as on other airline) invades a bit the seat behind but its angle of recline is much better than for the shell seat.
All airlines who installed shell seats in Y and PE moved back to conventional seats at quite an expense. AF seems the only airline who did not track back.
Unf
Sep 5, 2018, 3:14 am
#17
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 188
I flew AF PE product for the first time few days ago. For my height (190+ cm), the PE is unacceptable. I was in the first row so could not stretch my legs below the row in front. If I "reclined" the seat, situation was even worse. The seat transforms to something weird with no back-support. Since the seat slides forward, the legroom was even worse. I wonder who uses the leg support and how. I rather kept the seat in upright position. The hard product is completely different from the LH's. Yes, on LH the person in front invades your space but I can survive that since I push my seat backwards as well. I will never buy AF PE again (I don't mind the soft product). Speaking of which, the crew was not really attentive and hardly offered one drink with lunch. As I said, I don't mind the soft product but anyways. I was on B773.
Sep 5, 2018, 4:49 pm
#18
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: FB, M&B, UA, AA
Posts: 2,489
I flew AF PE product for the first time few days ago. For my height (190+ cm), the PE is unacceptable. I was in the first row so could not stretch my legs below the row in front. If I "reclined" the seat, situation was even worse. The seat transforms to something weird with no back-support. Since the seat slides forward, the legroom was even worse. I wonder who uses the leg support and how. I rather kept the seat in upright position. The hard product is completely different from the LH's. Yes, on LH the person in front invades your space but I can survive that since I push my seat backwards as well. I will never buy AF PE again (I don't mind the soft product). Speaking of which, the crew was not really attentive and hardly offered one drink with lunch. As I said, I don't mind the soft product but anyways. I was on B773.
Sep 6, 2018, 2:28 pm
#19
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Champaign, IL
Programs: AF/KL FB Ultimate Platinum for Life/Club 2000, UA MileagePlus
Posts: 524
I am planning to fly to Panama city in Premium Economy and i can either fly with LH or AF. Price is almost the same. I am star alliance gold but no status with sky team. I have flew a few times with LH in PE and i have to say i am not very impressed. How is AF PE on this route? Anyone has flew with both airlines in PE?
which I wholeheartedly agree with. To elaborate a bit further though, having experienced both W cabins on long hauls, the seat on an LH flight is admittedly by far superior. It actually reclines, but most importantly, it has good back and lumbar support by virtue of a high-resilience foam. Conversely, on B777s and A330s, the AF seat is simply abysmal. While one would think that the shell is a good idea, you soon realize that unlike in J, the seat mechanically slides into an ergonomically queer conformation, unsuitable for proper sleep. As emphasized by both brunos and Goldorak, the headrest and pitch constitute the Gordian knot with the AF seat, and this is actually where I vehemently disagree with ijgordon,
I wonder how much of this is just in people's heads.
Geometrically, there's no difference between the seat back angling backward, or the seat cushion sliding forward while the headrest stays longitudinally in place, but just slides down. Either way you end up with a seat moving from this: _ to this: \_.
Geometrically, there's no difference between the seat back angling backward, or the seat cushion sliding forward while the headrest stays longitudinally in place, but just slides down. Either way you end up with a seat moving from this: _ to this: \_.
I invite you to look at the last Skytrax rankings. Surprisingly, the AF W cabin ranks 5th, which is, for what it is worth, not too bad, but when you consider the subcategories that led to the final grade, you realize that seat wise, AF does not even appear in the ranking. The poor grade for the seat is actually balanced out by that for catering and service, where traditionally AF does better than its competitors. I am personally puzzled, as many of these competitors have made tremendous progress, serving a distinctive entree, i.e., not that of Y, with real tableware, i.e., not cheap plastic one. As a personal note, one thing that you cannot beat is the AF service by a very professional crew eager to help. There are black sheep, just like anywhere, but for the most part, these are good people. Another side comment — AF is cognizant of the problem with its W seats and is rethinking them. It will take time, however, to see the cabins retrofitted and on par with the competition.
Macaron54
Sep 14, 2018, 3:23 am
#20
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
Programs: FB Plat for life, FB PC, M&M FT, Hertz President (+ many low tier cards)
Posts: 2,777
In stark contrast with the recliner seat on LH flights, as the AF seat mechanically slides forward, you suddenly have less space available for your legs to stretch out. Furthermore, I find the comparison based on the two pictures a bit disingenuous. The AF W cabin being shown is that of the Dreamliner. AF only has six of those, amid a plethora of B777s and A330s. I do agree, however, that the seat has been rethought somewhat. While I remain open-minded, I, nonetheless, doubt it would make my long hauls in the W cabin a super enjoyable experience, as I remain convinced that the seat is flawed at its very conceptual level.
Sep 19, 2018, 4:51 pm
#21
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SJC / SFO
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum; Marriott Bonvoy Platinum; Hilton Gold
Posts: 785
I've flown AF W a few times on both A380 and B777 and was OK with it. Haven't flown W on any other carrier so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I'd take W over Y anytime, love to have my own armrests (ok, one exception - if in Y I could get the full 4 seater for myself, I'd prefer that obviously).
Sep 21, 2018, 7:26 am
#22
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 20
My biggest problem with AF PE seat (applies also to AZ and SU PE = same seat design) is the presence of plastic dividers between the seats. This restricts legroom even further, subjecting passengers to keep legs always in one position, in front. This is annoying as hell, my legs have more freedom of movement in regular economy than in PE.