skyhighlander

Greetings everyone and all the best in New Year!

I'm not as well traveled as some of you here on this forum, nor do I keep up with the flight safety regulations changes, so I look forward to hearing your comments on the following.

Recently I was on the Air France short haul CDG bound flight. So I'm sitting in 1F, single row of BC A319-100. Half an hour earlier I was the only one in business so I'm quite glad when a nice French lady turns up taking 1A (for some reason I always feel awkward with just one row in use when I'm the only one in business and the plane is full).

Anyway, once boarding is completed and the seat belt sign is switched ON she stands up and moves forward to - what I thought at the time - was the toilet. I wonder for a couple of minutes why people do that, and then I forget about it.

That is until several minutes later when I hear the engines roaring as we line up for take off and I notice she still hasn't returned. The purser seems to go about his duties as normal and once I look up I see the lavatory lights indicating vacant, so I start questioning myself - perhaps she wasn't meant to be in business in the first place, had to move to the back and I just didn't notice?

We take off, seatbelt sign is switched off, I go and use the toilet (which is indeed vacant), drink service starts, I settle down, and suddenly there she goes from behind the front curtain! She WAS in the cockpit during take off.

Ok then, I have something else to think about! Perhaps she was assessing the pilot? But then how? She's not in the uniform. Ok. Then the pilot (or the first officer, don't know) comes out twice during the flight to check up on her in a very cordial, personal way.

Once we get close to CDG and the decent starts the purser approaches her and - judging by his body language - says "Are you ready to go back in?". She smiles, puts away her glass with what seems to be a red wine, unfastens her seatbelt and there she goes in to the cockpit again!

During landing (which wasn't the worst I've had by any means but still bumpy and performed in a poor weather) the only thing I could focus on was her presence in the cockpit and that if we crash landed the narrator in the Air Crash Investigations would call her the only thing you could call her - "a distraction".

So yeah, I'm not some sort of "safety Jeff" ruining everyone's time by telling them they can't play ball here for a number of hazardous reasons, but even to me this did not feel right, to say the least. And I know it's irrational but given the history no matter what I do I can't get as comfortable and relaxed on any Air France flight as much as I can on KLM, BA or LH for that matter, and this event ain't going to help me with this!

And yes, I do kick myself for not asking the purser on the spot what the hell is happening here, but neither did anyone else and I'm sure people further back must have had a much better view of this than me (due to the position of the bulkhead I did not actually see her entering the cockpit, and she did not come out before we had to disembark, but obviously she did not disappear into thin air!).

Anyway, off to the public now, let me know what you think.

af fp

The pilots can have any guests they want in the cockpit as long as they deem it safe. There is a jumpseat there, which is used often, and they know their job. I have seen this happen on other airlines too.

Had you told me that there was loud music and you could smell pot coming from the cockpit, I would have started wondering, but here it seems quite safe.

KLflyerRalph

Let's keep the paranoia on the other side of the Atlantic. The captain can invite anyone to the flightdeck as (s)he pleases. This is a daily occurence on various airlines.

KLouis

@ skyhighlander: Two questions!

1) What is the historical fact that gives you an unconfortable and not relaxing feeling when flying AF but not when flying KL, BA or LH?

2) It took more than 30 minutes to board the A319? I quote: Half an hour earlier I was the only one in business so I'm quite glad when a nice French lady turns up taking 1A.

JOUY31

^^^

Xandrios

Don't worry about it. Most probably a relative of one of the cockpit crew. And as others said, perfectly within the rules and deemed acceptable by the authorities.

Next time you're the only one in business ask the purser if you could join the crew in the cockpit for take off or landing (or better yet, the captain if he pops out during the flight). Crews are generally much more open to such request when coming from somebody in business class, and if accepted, I'm sure you'll enjoy the experience

skyhighlander

Thanks guys. I still have very mixed feelings about this (I would prefer cockpit to be "sterile" during takeoff and landing), but at least now I know it's not as rare as I thought it was and I'm glad I didn't kick up a fuss.

1. I've been feeling this way since their 447 disaster, which was a major F up. Every time someone says "they know what their doing" the voice recording of that flight immediately comes back to my mind.

We can't blame AF for all the accidents they had, like Concorde, we can say that safety procedures worked fine in Toronto, nevertheless they always seemed way too laid back for my taste. Probably that started before the first delayed flight with them back in 2004. When a crew member was asked when we would be leaving he said - "Oh, pilots are just finishing that bottle of wine so we will be on our way shortly!". So yeah, I can't joke about the bombs but you can joke about drunks flying the plane?

On the other hand their partners at KLM have always seemed ultra professional (and yes, I know about the Tenerife ), and yet friendly. I think this is the only airline I feel totally comfortable traveling on when you think about safety. British and Lufthansa are not far behind.

As I said, I know it's irrational. And don't get me wrong, I will still chose them when schedule works and KLM has no reasonable alternative. And I'll be absolutely fine eating good food and drinking their wine, so I wouldn't even call an anxiety, but there's just something about them that doesn't sit totally right with me. And things like above don't help as my mind immediately wonders to what kind of shenanigans must be taking place.

2. Online seat map.

skyhighlander

Ha! And that's you you put a good spin on the story! I may give it a go one day. Surely it's easier than stating to date a pilot.

Sjondorn

I find US airlines much stricter about people in the cockpit area, they'll block the aisle with a cart whenever the cockpit door are open. AF however, when flying CDG-TLV, pilot just exited the cockpit when I was waiting at lavs no problem and ended up queuing after me for the lavs.

kyanar

Not Qantas? The world's safest airline, with no jet fatalities since they started operation?

Not US airlines, US authorities. Those are FAA requirements to block access to the cockpit when the pilot or flight deck crew are exiting or entering. Ever since September 11.

skyhighlander

I've never had a pleasure of being on one of their aircrafts so can't really say how I would feel... every time I think about the Qantas case though tossing a coin comes to my mind. The more times you toss a head the more likely it is the next time it will be a tail. And Qantas certainly had its fair share of heads so they are way overdue for one tail...

...but that's just a human perception of course... from what I remember form math class and the probability theory the likelihood of tossing a head is still the same even after, say, 200 heads... But then again, how likely is it to happen? Not sure if there's a theory addressing that?

So yes, I know all western airlines are extremely safe, but sometimes I still give in to my human nature and make a decision to choose one over another based on my previous experiences and irrational feelings And primarily using AF & KLM I'd much rather do KLM.

Funny enough, I've never been anxious on any Ryanair or EasyJet flight. It always feels just like a bus, and who would worry or get himself worked up before a bus trip? Even Germanwings crash did not change my feelings here, go figure?

Fabo.sk

The problem here is twofold.
1. After 200 heads, it is still the same chance 201 will be heads or tails. Of course the chance to get 200 heads in a row is miniscule, but that already happened, so it shouldn't be counted there.

2. Safety is not a random chance. The fact alone that QF had 200 heads in a row is more of an indication that they are really, really, really good at getting heads in a coin toss.

As for the person in cockpit, for all we know she might have been airline employee with the requisite clearance. Either way, I think it's more likely than not she knew how to behave to not be a distraction. After all this evidently wasn't some random starlet in for a cool picture for her Instagram.

WorldLux

There used to be a time where they'd just invite anyone up there. Some pilots would even draw a seat number and whoever in that said would win the coveted jump seat for the landing. Unless the visitor has his hands at the control you have nothing to fear. Moreover, takeoff and landing are those phases where pilots are probably most focused. I'd worry much more about visitors while the plane is in cruise and pilots could pay more attention to their visitor than their job. Incidentally, SU 593 presumably crashed after one of the pilot's two children sat at the controls and unknowingly disabled the autopilot.

While I wouldn't judge an airline for its past (particularly if it's over 40 years old), Tenerife was a much bigger F up than most I've witnessed since. While the combination of multiple factors (e.g. the fake bomb alarm at the TFS) only made that catastrophe possible, the crew interaction was a principal issue and confirming whether or not Pan Am had cleared the runway would have save countless lives. Thankfully KL learned from its mistakes and - by the looks of 2017's statistics - so did everyone else.

The statistically probability of an accident is quite a bit more complex than tossing a coin.

BTW: The probably that head is coming up in the next coin toss is after 200 times still the same.
The probably that head is coming up only one in 200 coin toss is a lot lower.

You should probably pick a bus much more carefully than your airline. Deadly bus accidents are quite frequent. I know in fact someone who lost several relatives in a bus crash this year and another who survived a bus crash a couple of years ago (some friends of his weren't so lucky).

Collierkr

San Gottardo

(The quote/multi-quote function for some reason does not work properly anymore since FT brought in this *?+*)*+*###!! of a new forum technology, so I hope my comments are understood even without the context they are responding to)

Re: "sterile cockpit"
"Sterile cockpit" does NOT mean that there is no other person than pilots in the cockpit. Sterile cockpit means that pilots have to wear headsets all the time (so as not to miss any ATC communication), and that there is no communication/conversation other than related to that phase of the flight. Sterile cockpit is typically before line-up (when declaring "ready to depart" to ATC, after all the pre-takeoff check list items have been cleared) and below 10,000 ft on approach.

Re: is it airlines or aviation authorities that determine who can be in the cockpit
Rules on who can be in the cockpit are made by the regulatory authorities of the country where the airline is registered. For instance, no person in the cockpit of a US-registered plane, anywhere in the world. But perfectly OK for visitors in the cockpit of an AF flight landing in the US. There are a few exceptions, e.g. the UK does allow visitors in the cockpit but only "if they have a role" related to the phase of the flight. Which pilots simply circumvent by telling their visitor "your official role is to watch out for crossing cars or that we have the gear up. But even if there is a car or we don't have the wheels up, just shut up". I think Israel does not allow visitors in the cockpit of any flight to/from its territory. Airlines are allowed to be stricter. For instance, whilst visitors are allowed in the cockpit for airlines flying from/to the UK, British Airways does not allow any visitors in the cockpit.

Re: is it dangerous
Funny how these anecdotes usually come up from people from the Western side of the Atlantic. They freak out when the Captain's wife or child sits with him in the cockpit, after having gone through security at the airport. But they don't mind people walking into a supermarket or a cinema with a rifle or gun where they could kill many many people. I have even seen posts from people asking whether it was safe to fly to <insert European airport, I forgot which one it was> because people didn't have to take off their shoes at security. Ridiculous.