carnarvon

Long haul only indeed.

The behaviour you describe may exist, but how many are in this state of mind ?

On the other hand, how many faithful Y PAX does it antagonise ?

There is NO way to know the likelihood of an upgrade offer, so what you describe is akin to gambling.

This policy is more a consequence of AF "genetic" hatred for upgrades (other than for F&F) as well as its reluctance to move away ftom the captive market situation from the past than anything else.

Fabo.sk

There is a non-zero amount of people like this that exist. I would not be surprised if the value gained was well over the value lost, compared with offering cheap upgrades.

Plus, the price tends to go up for repeat customers of the upgrades, where you want to disincentivise them for two distinct reasons,
1. If they are likely to otherwise buy premium classes, you want to prevent the beaviour described heretofore
2. If they are unlikely to otherwise buy premium classes, then they are not valid targets for these promotions anyway. Remember the airline doesn't do it because it likes you. It does it because it wants to showcase business class.

Plus, there is yet another group of people, these are the ones who have funds to buy business class, are normally willing to buy business class, but for some reasons (i.e. corporate travel policy) they aren't able to. They might very well be willing to occasionally pay very high upgrade pricing.

As was found out recently with new style profiles on airline website (not sure if AF or KL), this is not actually business class miles, this is full flex economy miles. Meaningless distinction as of today, but it would have massive implications starting April.

Concerto

Yes, interesting. But I will most definitely NOT spend any money on premium upgrades on AF any more, but keep the cash for other things at the destination. Par contre, I think that AF’s economy class is very good, compared to others.

carnarvon

Which kind of people are you referring to? You lost me.

Hmmmm Are you sure? People who can afford biz would certainly not need to be shown what biz is to want to fly biz.

I think you are underestimating AF's obsession with being possibly unable to extract the max from pax wanting to fly biz.

They will take any measure (such as pricing very high for repeat what they see as offenders), whatever the commercial or image cost, to ensure it does not happen. They don't understand pax. Never have.

Remember that when upgrade at cost was not available, AF was obsessed with not upgrading their frequent Y pax, fearing that biz pax would start to buy Y in the very remote unlikely hope that they will be upgraded. It was back then even more stupid and ludicrous than today, but it was the same pattern of thinking as today "never upgrade FF because they will stop buying biz and buy Y". This is why full fare occasional pax were top of the list of operational upgrades (after F&F of course).

The airlines are trying to make some money by filling seats which would otherwise fly empty. € 600 is better than nothing, even if it is less that what they would get if they sold the seat at list price.

Fabo.sk

The kind that would gamble on a cheap upgrade instead of making sure with a business class seat


You might be surprised. Most people don't obsess over product as we do on FT. They might be basing their idea on any number of things. Maybe from that one time they flew business class 20 years ago. On a movie. On thinking longhaul business is like US domestic first.

brunos

AF wants to showcase. That's the reason they have rotated BEST to many destinations. I find it somewhat-misleading advertising, but just got an email promoting their new business class with "on some intercontinental flights" written in small letters. They certainly wish to showcase their new product to flyers who are not regular AF flyers (as proxied by their FB profile, or absence thereoff). Hence, upgrades are targeted.

Carnavon: like other posters I disagree with your black & white vision of pax who can "afford" business class.
In today's world, it's all about value. Not only comparing Y and J on AF but also comparing with other airlines on the route. Some pax will always buy J, some always Y. But for some pax, it is a marginal choice.

Let's assume that AF followed your suggested policy of prioritizing their elite+ with cheap upgrade offers, even free opup. Let's say that you expect a 50% chance to be upgraded for cheap (arbitrary number). Let's say that it would save you 1,000 per segment from straight J purchase. It does provide incentive for elite+ to get value by buying Y and hoping for upgrade. There is a lot of things you can buy by saving the direct purchase of J.

Apparently, there is a policy change at AF. AF wishes to attract new customers with their BEST product and to avoid having frequent FB flyers down-buy due to frequent upgrading. It does mean that you are frustrated with this perceived change of policy. But frequent upgrades are not part of FB promises (as opposed to the detailed system put in place by many US airlines). It could be that some Y pax will switch to other airlines because of the fewer and more costly upgrades. But the new policy makes sense for AF bottom line. Of course, it will take time to adjust the upgrade price parameters.

carnarvon

I don't know in which business you are in but in all the businesses I have been, deceiving a customer has always meant losing the said customer. You can't fool a customer twice.

If AF rotates the BEST birds, it is because they cannot afford to retrofit all of them.

Furthermore, the upgrade offers are not limited to BEST.

Do you think that a Y PAX able to afford biz but who buys Y out of ignorance will be so thrilled by the middle NEV4 seat, that he will fork out the 1000's of € that AF charges for a biz seat for his next trip?

brunos

No disagreement here

carnarvon

50%!!!! Never dreamed of such a number. We would need to use factual figures in order to make an informed judgement.

AF has never systematically upgraded FF. Even though the formula remained a secret, it was commonly accepted that they prioritised full fare occasional Y PAX over FF discounted Y PAX.

AF decisions are far from being rational.

You have to keep in mind how they think to try to understand what they do.

Management has forced paid upgrade down the throat of the "system". The system in turn has reacted by punishing FF who because they are FF would have more opportunities to buy an upgrade that Paul and Joe going on their yearly Caribbean holiday.

AF has always thought that biz seats must be paid 1000's, to the point that they have always preferred flying an empty biz cabin rather that upgrade their most loyal FF from time to time (I repeat : from time to time, not systematically "à la US airlines").

The same thought pattern survives: "you want us to sell upgrades rather than keeping unsold seats to F&F? OK, we'll make sure the upgrades go wasted by selling them in priority to people who seldom fly and make sure we frustrate our most loyal customers who dare not buy biz seats (AF being convinced that they have the best product in the world; always since Espace 127, through to NEV 2,3 and 4).

Sjondorn

US airlines do not upgrade systematically FF on their international routes, it’s just on domestic routes.

OpenSky

Just out of curiosity, does AF offer upgrades at check in Business to La Premier?

Lufthansa Does Not. BA does not, unless you are BA Premier Card holder. Swiss does not.
Etihad does. For cash. Emirates depends. Also for cash, and both do not like to advertise it.

I would do this if it was priced correctly, ( i.e attractive to me)

carnarvon

Indeed. This is the only example I knew of systematic upgrades.

Goldorak

tff

Recent offers:

GIG-CDG (seats are NEV in C):

stimpy

Or €4800 in my case recently, LAX-CDG. Rather silly IMO.