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-   -   La Première with an Infant (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1864361-la-premiere-infant.html)

tally99 Aug 31, 17 6:58 am

La Première with an Infant
 
My wife and I are flying to CDG with our 15 month old infant. We booked through Delta and are flying a Delta plane to CDG and an Air France plane on the way back to the US. We're doing infant in arms on both segments and already paid Delta the nearly $1,000 for the infant ticket which is confirmed on both segments.

Here's the problem...we're flying Delta One / Business on the way to CDG, but on the way back we're flying Le Primere / First on Air France. Looking at Air France's website, it appears infants must have their own seat in Le Primere. What are we supposed to do at this point? I'm thinking we leave it alone and let it get sorted out at the airport. It could be a rule they don't actually enforce or they could force us to downgrade to Business where infants do not require their own seat (in which case Delta would hopefully provide some sort of compensation). My fear is that calling reservations now to sort it out will either result in cancelled tickets or crazy fees.

nldogbert Aug 31, 17 7:04 am

:eek: mon dieu....:eek::eek::eek: an infant in first....quelle horreur ....non non...pas possible...:cool:

Wunk Aug 31, 17 7:05 am

From what I see here, there's a requirement for an extra ticket that you don't have. So I see a few possibilities:

- They'll allow it (not sure how likely this is as it's clearly stated)
- You can't board until you buy an extra ticket against current max-fare price at the airport ($$$$$), as you're missing a ticket for 1 passenger. Subject to availability.
- You get a downgrade as you say, but you're risking availability here as well. Chance is that you'll get stranded on a later flight because J is full.

Honestly, I wouldn't risk it. I'd just call and ask what the options are. They're not just going to blindly cancel your ticket because you ask for information on what you can do.


edit: but I do agree here with the others. Having a 15 month old infant in F.., I wouldn't be happy (bit of an understatement) as a fellow PAX in that cabin.

carnarvon Aug 31, 17 7:08 am


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28759523)
My wife and I are flying to CDG with our 15 month old infant. (...) on the way back we're flying Le Primere / First on Air France

= Volatus horribilis for the other pax.

People with experience of flying F on AF will tell you what their experience is. Last time I flew F was too long ago but knowing how exclusive AF La Premiere product is, I would not be surprised they did not let you take your infant with you without his seat.

This rule is obviously to deter people flying with infants; unless one is afloat with cash, who would pay a La Première fare for an infant????

Lakeviewsteve Aug 31, 17 7:09 am

Here's the problem? There are other problems than you mention such as breaking the rules they have in place for a purpose. The F cabin on AF is advertised as a quiet oasis away from it all. A screaming infant on a lap? Isn't that a problem? Maybe not for you, but for the person paying $10,000 one way for F it could be a big problem. Why shouldn't AF protect them?

Did you book the RT through Delta and they are including the infant in the record? Isn't Delta breaking the AF rule if that is the case? Or, maybe the infant isn't confirmed at all and you have no ticket for it. In that case wouldn't the infant be considered a stow away and not even listed on the fight manifest if AF allowed it to board without a ticket? Worrying about this the whole trip could spoil the trip. I would vote for taking care of the problem before leaving on the trip.

Klems Aug 31, 17 7:36 am

I agree with others and I think you should take care of that before the trip - otherwise you're gonna be worried about it until the day of and will put a damp on your vacation.

As others also mentioned, flying in La Premiere with an infant sounds like a terrible idea. This is indeed a very exclusive and serene place, and people will HATE you there if you have a screaming child (and understandably so when they paid 6-10k for their ticket). This will make for a very unpleasant flight for not just them but also for you as you'll have to deal with even more judgment than in other classes.
Additionally, unless you are used to fly La Premiere often and so the novelty has worn out for you, it's really an experience that has so many things to enjoy and take advantage of that having an infant with you will probably prevent you to do so.
So I'd say go in business, and maybe save the La Premiere trip for a couple thing.

tally99 Aug 31, 17 7:39 am

I know, I know, the horror of flying with a baby in first.

Thanks for the advice, I'll likely give Delta a call and see what can be done.

The infant does in fact have a ticket on all segments, his own ticket number and everything. So I think the Delta agent made a mistake when allowing us to purchase the infant in arms ticket.

brunos Aug 31, 17 7:40 am

Could you provide a website link regarding AF infant policy in P?
That seems strange.

Zarmakuizz Aug 31, 17 7:53 am

For what I may read on Air France terms:

Infants under 2 years of age traveling with a Customer are admitted at no extra charge. For infants over 2 years of age, the applicable fare is the same as that of the Customer.

carnarvon Aug 31, 17 8:03 am


Originally Posted by Zarmakuizz (Post 28759739)
For what I may read on Air France terms:

This pertains to "General Conditions of Sale for La Première ground services at Paris-Charles de Gaulle"

KLflyerRalph Aug 31, 17 8:04 am


Originally Posted by AF TA website
Acceptance restrictions per cabin class:
La Première (AF only)
Bassinets (cradles) are not available in La Première.

For the comfort of all La Première passengers, passengers travelling with infants should be encouraged to travel in Business or Economy instead.

Should the passenger insist on La Première, an additional seat must be purchased for the accompanying infant.

1 seat for the accompanying passenger,
1 seat for the infant next to the accompanying passenger, on which an approved car seat may be installed.


carnarvon Aug 31, 17 8:09 am


Originally Posted by brunos (Post 28759697)
Could you provide a website link regarding AF infant policy in P?
That seems strange.

Tried a mock booking and got following message : "You have chosen to travel in La Première cabin with a baby. To better meet your needs and facilitate your installation on board, we invite you to contact us at the number reserved for you."

Seems to indicate there is an issue....

tally99 Aug 31, 17 9:16 am

Yeah, it's written on this page in the reduced fares section: http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common...er_enfants.htm


==
If your child is under 2 years of age:
he or she can travel on your lap at no extra charge on flights within metropolitan France, or at a reduced fare on international flights,
you can also reserve a seat for your infant and benefit from the fare reduction listed above.

Please note: you must reserve a seat for your infant if you are traveling in the La Première cabin.

==

I really think worst case scenario I'll be moved to business at the airport and two lucky people will be bumped to first. Worst case scenario if I call, I'll be forced to have my tickets reissued at today's rates for business which are probably even higher than I paid for first. Had I not checked Air France's website (after I booked the tickets) I wouldn't have even known about this policy.

carnarvon Aug 31, 17 10:02 am


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28760082)
(...) I really think worst case scenario I'll be moved to business at the airport and two lucky people will be bumped to first. (...).

Are you sure it is the worst case scenario?

Can't you be denied boarding altogether as you infant's ticket is not a valid ticket and you have to purchase a new one, but your F ticket does not allow it and you have to purchase a new biz ticket?

NHFL9 Aug 31, 17 11:08 am


Originally Posted by carnarvon (Post 28760302)
Are you sure it is the worst case scenario?

Can't you be denied boarding altogether as you infant's ticket is not a valid ticket and you have to purchase a new one, but your F ticket does not allow it and you have to purchase a new biz ticket?

Think OP has a contract with Delta for transport in F from CDG given that he paid for the infant and has a ticket issued for said infant on the flight. Air France could certainly deny boarding and/ or require the purchase of a new ticket, but would think OP would be well within his rights to go after DL for the additional cost incurred. That said, compelling DL to do the right thing could be a tremendous hassle.

I'd recommend calling AF and explaining the situation, see what they say. As someone who has travelled quite a bit in the last year with an infant, I'd say you don't want to have to be dealing with this uncertainty on travel day. Given that DL sold a ticket for the lap infant and you paid for it, I think it is up to DL to work it out with AF. If you have no luck with Reservations, I wouldn't hesitate to call corporate.

orbitmic Aug 31, 17 11:45 am

I can only join others in recommending that you contact AF or DL asap to regularise the situation. I have no issue with you travelling with an infant in P, I have seen it before and it is not an issue, but they must indeed have their own seat and in P it will have to be fully paid.

SDQBound Aug 31, 17 11:51 am


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28759523)
...It could be a rule they don't actually enforce...

Trust me, AF will always enforce any written rule, and especially when it comes to their most prestigious product.

orbitmic Aug 31, 17 12:52 pm


Originally Posted by SDQBound (Post 28760813)
Trust me, AF will always enforce any written rule, and especially when it comes to their most prestigious product.

Well, while I am not sure about 'always', at any rate, the hope that they will allow two passengers to pay for merely more than the price of two in P is unrealistically optimistic.

Hengilas Aug 31, 17 6:54 pm

100% of the time I am not calling and just playing dumb at the airport...usually better to ask forgiveness than permission. However I still think you're nuts for bringing a baby in AF F ;)

Quinlanty Aug 31, 17 9:56 pm

I would call and sort it out in advance. Not worth the minimal cost savings to risk all types of trouble. No problem with a baby in F. Other pax paid for a seat, not total control of the cabin.

FlyWithKaeMarie Aug 31, 17 11:13 pm

Lord have mercy if I ever have to fly in First Class with an infant. I can't stand it in business class, let alone a prestigious product like La Premiere.

ranskis Sep 1, 17 1:02 am

I don't think there is a rule about flying F with an infant, it is just that AF does not fill F fares for infants on lap, so you have no other choice than purchasing a normal child fare with a seat for a an infant travelling in AF F.

Now, it might be that DL filled infant fares that also apply on AF operated flights in F. But although there is no bassinet, you baby still has an F ticket for this flight.

What could happen though is that there is no safety equipment (like oxygen mask) for an infant in F, so you might indeed be downgraded, or your baby be "upgraded" to an F seat. This would be an operational reason that AF must deal with, it can then argue with DL regarding who is faulty and who pays what but as a customer, you should get the whole family in AF first class as you purchased the ticket. I would not call or do anything now.

orbitmic Sep 1, 17 3:43 am


Originally Posted by Hengilas (Post 28762323)
100% of the time I am not calling and just playing dumb at the airport...usually better to ask forgiveness than permission.

Well, there are cases where things 'can be arranged' and things where they won't. AF is not offering a free F ticket where a full price one should have been purchased. That leaves various possible outcomes:

1) Best possible outcome is likely to be that at the airport, the OP has to buy the third full fare F ticket which might be more expensive than buying it in advance.

2) Second possible outcome is that F is full and there is no more F seat to sell for the infant. In that case, the choices could range from one of the passengers not flying (whilst the other adult and the baby will), or that all accept a voluntary downgrade, which might well mean no seats together and almost certainly no bassinet, whilst obviously good seats, a bassinet, and likely a not inconsequential refund would be available now.

In short, in this case, I think that leaving it to the last minute is frankly counter-productive.

awayIgo Sep 1, 17 5:30 am

I'll look at this from an entirely different POV. You are obviously financially able to spend all that money, yet refuse to purchase a seat for your infant. ( in whatever class) Do you realize that in the event of severe turbulence, you will NOT be able to hold your child and s/he can become a flying projectile. It is sad when the class of seat, is more important than the safety of the child.

durberville Sep 1, 17 5:31 am

Just look to the AF tariff. If the rule is in there, it's enforceable. If not, it's not enforceable. If it's not in the tariff and they deny you boarding or downgrade you, you have a fun lawsuit on your hands.

brunos Sep 1, 17 8:32 am

I agree that you should first look at the eticket for your infant. There should be a fare bucket.
I assume that the three tickets are revenue tickets (not awards or upgrade with miles). The fare bucket might give you indications. For the first segment it could be J****/IN. For the second segment does the fare bucket starts with P or F?

Like Orbitmic, I would not wait for the stress at the airport (and in the preceding days).
I would call to clarify.
It could well be a mistake by the DL agent (you have to call for an infant). But if you already paid two expensive F seats AF should be reasonable with you (once you get a knowledgeable agent). I think that La Premiere has a dedicated phone line (I certainly hope so). Just hear what they have to say.

Porcepic Sep 1, 17 8:53 am


Originally Posted by FlyWithKaeMarie (Post 28762983)
Lord have mercy if I ever have to fly in First Class with an infant. I can't stand it in business class, let alone a prestigious product like La Premiere.

Slightly OT, but on a recent flight in J with infants in both parts of the J cabin, I have "intercepted" a conversation between a FA and a passenger complaining about the presence of these infants (btw, who were not so noisy, and for some of them who had their own seats). FA replied that she considered indeed it was not acceptable in J and said she had filed a report to raise the issue.

Found it a bit strange, especially considering the parents were not that far from the conversation. Thankfully my egoism and a glass of Chartreuse has then helped to reduce my embarrassment.

johan rebel Sep 1, 17 1:04 pm

I've got nothing against flying infants in principle, regardless of class of travel. On occasion it can go horribly wrong, though.

I recently had a longhaul night flight on LX, with one infant directly across the aisle from me, and the other in the same row but across the second aisle. The one infant cried frequently but intermittently, the other howled almost nonstop, at the top of his voice. It was like a never-ending primordial scream at maximum volume. I watched him for a while, he actually had difficulties breathing and screaming at the same time, literally simultaneously choking and gasping for air. How he managed to sustain this for an almost 11 hour flight without losing consciousness and his voice is utterly beyond me. I've never seen anything like it. I felt a bit sorry for the poor parents, but a lot more sorry for the other pax and myself. These kids kept 38 pax in a full J cabin awake all night.

Johan

Calchas Sep 1, 17 3:53 pm


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28759523)
My wife and I are flying to CDG with our 15 month old infant. We booked through Delta and are flying a Delta plane to CDG and an Air France plane on the way back to the US. We're doing infant in arms on both segments and already paid Delta the nearly $1,000 for the infant ticket which is confirmed on both segments.

Here's the problem...we're flying Delta One / Business on the way to CDG, but on the way back we're flying Le Primere / First on Air France. Looking at Air France's website, it appears infants must have their own seat in Le Primere. What are we supposed to do at this point? I'm thinking we leave it alone and let it get sorted out at the airport. It could be a rule they don't actually enforce or they could force us to downgrade to Business where infants do not require their own seat (in which case Delta would hopefully provide some sort of compensation). My fear is that calling reservations now to sort it out will either result in cancelled tickets or crazy fees.

The booking system charges the same price for an infant with a seat and an infant without a seat on AF La Première fares.

(I presume it was not technically possible to disallow the INF category altogether?)

Code:

CHILDREN DISCOUNTS       
  CNN/ACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 2-11. ID REQUIRED - CHARGE
    100 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
        TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT APPLIED.
    MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
      COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
  OR - INS/INFANT WITH A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2. ID REQUIRED -
          CHARGE 100 PERCENT OF THE FARE.

              TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT APPLIED.
          MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
            COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
        NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
          1 ADULT PASSENGER AGED AT LEAST 18 YEARS
          MAY BE ACCOMPANIED BY A MAXIMUM OF 1 INFANTS
          --------------------------------------------
          FRENCH REGULATIONS FORBID 2 INFANTS - LESS THAN
          2 YEARS OLD - FROM BEING ACCOMPANIED BY JUST ONE
          ADULT PASSENGER .
          THE INFANT MUST BE HELD ON THE LAP OF THE
          PASSENGER DURING TAXI-TAKE OFF-LANDING
          AND TURBULENCES
          --------------------------------------------
          THE AGE LIMITS REFERRED TO IN THIS RULE SHALL BE
          THOSE IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF COMMENCEMENT
          OF TRAVEL.
          EXCEPTION - INFANTS WHO REACH THEIR 2ND
          BIRTHDAY DURING THEIR TRAVEL WILL BE REQUIRED
          TO OCCUPY A SEAT ON THE OUTBOUND AND INBOUND
          FLIGHT.
          THE CHILD FARE NEEDS TO BE APPLIED FOR THE WHOLE
          JOURNEY
  OR - 1ST INF/INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 -
          CHARGE 100 PERCENT OF THE FARE.

              TICKET DESIGNATOR - IN AND PERCENT APPLIED.
          MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
            COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
        NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
          1 ADULT PASSENGER AGED AT LEAST 18 YEARS
          MAY BE ACCOMPANIED BY A MAXIMUM OF 1 INFANTS
          --------------------------------------------
          FRENCH REGULATIONS FORBID 2 INFANTS - LESS THAN
          2 YEARS OLD - FROM BEING ACCOMPANIED BY JUST ONE
          ADULT PASSENGER .
          THE INFANT MUST BE HELD ON THE LAP OF THE
          PASSENGER DURING TAXI-TAKE OFF-LANDING
          AND TURBULENCES
          --------------------------------------------
          THE AGE LIMITS REFERRED TO IN THIS RULE SHALL BE
          THOSE IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF COMMENCEMENT
          OF TRAVEL.
          EXCEPTION - INFANTS WHO REACH THEIR 2ND
          BIRTHDAY DURING THEIR TRAVEL WILL BE REQUIRED
          TO OCCUPY A SEAT ON THE OUTBOUND AND INBOUND
          FLIGHT.
          THE CHILD FARE NEEDS TO BE APPLIED FOR THE WHOLE
          JOURNEY
  OR - UNN/UNACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 5-14. ID REQUIRED -
          CHARGE 100 PERCENT OF THE FARE PLUS USD 200.00.
              TICKET DESIGNATOR - UM0.
        NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
          SERVICE CHARGE FOR UNACCOMPANIED CHILD

I would raise this with Delta ticketing to confirm that your child has been noted as INS (infant with a seat) and not INF (infant without a seat).

San Gottardo Sep 1, 17 5:08 pm

AF takes this very seriously, so better to call them. A couple of weeks ago I was in Premiere where the other two pax were a mother and her infant.

However, if you don't mind the expense, go for it, and ignore all the comments about people being bothered by the mere presence of an infant. I have done several First flights with young kids (not sure they were still infant, but I still have a picture of my 3 year old in an AF premiere seat), it was shorter flights to the Middle East, never a problem, crews were absolutely adorable and the kids well behaved. On that recent flight in AF Premiere where there was also a kid the crew was super caring and lovely, preparing a little bed for the small passenger to sleep in with many pillows.

And those that are convinced that infant automatically means crying infant deserve to sit close to someone who snores throughout a 10 hour flight, or someone who didn't take a shower since some time... things that happen in Premiere and last much much longer than the cries of a baby would.

tally99 Sep 3, 17 10:00 am

Thanks for all of the advice, I decided to call Delta as suggested. The agent I spoke with was very nice, looked up my reservation and said that everything was in order. She claims that the infant in arms restriction is only for Le Premiere and that I am booked in Business Class. Not sure how this is possible as the fare class on my ticket is F, class of service says "First" and my seat is 2E on an Airbus A380, in addition when I do a mock booking for the same flight in Le Premiere, both my and my wife's seat show occupied.

I feel at this point I've gone above and beyond to remedy this situation. I could try to call Air France directly rather than Delta, however I believe Delta handles customer service for Air France in the US. So at this point I will just trust that the agent who booked the flight and the agent who confirmed it are correct and that all is order.

I'll update this thread upon my return.

carnarvon Sep 3, 17 2:34 pm


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28771284)
I believe Delta handles customer service for Air France in the US. So at this point I will just trust that the agent who booked the flight and the agent who confirmed it are correct.

You're obviously heading (looking?) for trouble.

Correct as ? Booked in F or in Biz?

You can reach AF La Premiere line direct.

Go to airfrance.fr and start booking 2 seats in First with second PAX an infant.

You will be prevented from going further and told to call a French number which is a dedicated line for La Premiere customers. Tis class of travel is a very prestigious product and if you are indeed booked in F, then you will have top notch service from the people handling your call.

Calchas Sep 3, 17 3:58 pm


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28771284)
So at this point I will just trust that the agent who booked the flight and the agent who confirmed it are correct and that all is order.

I too look for excitement and surprise on my air travels

:p

San Gottardo Sep 3, 17 5:34 pm


Originally Posted by tally99 (Post 28771284)
Thanks for all of the advice, I decided to call Delta as suggested. The agent I spoke with was very nice, looked up my reservation and said that everything was in order. She claims that the infant in arms restriction is only for Le Premiere and that I am booked in Business Class. Not sure how this is possible as the fare class on my ticket is F, class of service says "First" and my seat is 2E on an Airbus A380, in addition when I do a mock booking for the same flight in Le Premiere, both my and my wife's seat show occupied.

I feel at this point I've gone above and beyond to remedy this situation. I could try to call Air France directly rather than Delta, however I believe Delta handles customer service for Air France in the US. So at this point I will just trust that the agent who booked the flight and the agent who confirmed it are correct and that all is order.

I'll update this thread upon my return.

"But I've called Delta" will not serve in lieu of a valid ticket for your infant. AF will laugh at you and sell you a ticket for $$$, should there still be seats available. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where you have to make this booking and payment last minute at the airport, and the airline by then has given out all remaining seats to passengers who have paid by money or miles to be in Premiere.

The mere fact that the Delta agent has told you that you are travelling in business shows how incompetent that person is. You have found out yourself that you are in premiere on the AF flight. Call AF

Klems Sep 3, 17 5:43 pm

FYI, I once talked to a Delta agent on the phone when I was trying to make some changes to an AF booking, and she was struggling a lot. She passed me on to a supervisor, and we chatted a bit and the supervisor told me that basically they don't have FULL access to AF systems, and they often have issues when they have to do anything because they're lacking features. Probably best to call AF in France, or better yet the La Premiere line indeed.

Sjondorn Sep 3, 17 10:33 pm

How did you manage booking La Premiere trough Delta? I don't see anywhere the option on their site, offers just Delta One / Business class.

brunos Sep 4, 17 2:35 am


Originally Posted by Sjondorn (Post 28773392)
How did you manage booking La Premiere trough Delta? I don't see anywhere the option on their site, offers just Delta One / Business class.

I was indeed wondering the same. You might have gone through a TA who issued on DL stock. Then the TA should sort things out.
But your story looks puzzling especially since DL sees it as business all the way.
You must have an eticket and I assume that you can see your booking on DL or even AF website. What do you see there?
Did you buy the tickets for yourself and then added a paid infant? Did you get, one way or another, some award tickets and added a paid infant?

Calchas Sep 4, 17 3:37 am


Originally Posted by Sjondorn (Post 28773392)
How did you manage booking La Premiere trough Delta? I don't see anywhere the option on their site, offers just Delta One / Business class.

Go to advance search and pick First or "First (F)" on the drop down list of fare classes.

https://i.imgur.com/HtbMnFkl.png

You can also book (almost) any AF flight you like via DL on the telephone.


Originally Posted by brunos (Post 28773838)
I was indeed wondering the same. You might have gone through a TA who issued on DL stock.

tally99 states quite clearly to have booked through Delta in post 1.

brunos Sep 4, 17 4:13 am

Thanks for the tip.

bodory Sep 4, 17 4:21 am

To the OP: I second others and suggest you to call as quickly as possible the dedicated Premiere line (+33 1 56 93 10 05) to sort that out. They answer 24/7.


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