What will be JOON's first [last] routes?
Sep 25, 2017, 12:23 pm
#46
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I *really* don't get it.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
- A CEO without balls has to create some "usine a gaz" to please the unions
- some bureaucrats/civil servant types who get their ideas about what customers need from some commonplace blabla ("Millenials are the thing now")
- are concerned about the brand perception ("not low cost", "has to be young", "has to show our heritage") and therefore spend a lot of time on finding a grandiose name
- spend a lot of time and money on the looks (colour, dress code)
- no time is spent on properly thinking through how this is being set up and executed, operations is improvised
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
Joon is AF with Buy on Board though they are thankfully less radical than BA and still offer water, juice, tea and coffee for free.
Joon is AF trying to compete with low costs but maintaining a 'business class' though a seemingly ghastly one which promises warm croissants for breakfast (just the same old croissants as in domestic Y before? But warmed? I mean if any bakery warmed their croissants before selling them to me they wouldn't see my face a second time. A warm croissant is oven-fresh, not re-warmed, that's a complete no-no, millennial or not). A business class that returns to that fabulous concept of only offering soft drinks or wine. Rings a bell? Yep, they did that a few years ago at the bottom of the service standards curve and had to come back, their tail between their legs, reintroducing spirits a couple of years later.
Joon is a new airline which is launched without even being launched. You go there and the message for most of the intercontinental offer is 'we're still working on it'.
This is frankly an empty shell, a silly venture. If AF wanted to rejuvenate their style then why split the brand and do it on some routes but not others and make the silly complicated offer even sillier and more complicated?
I think Dr Frankenstein is at play somewhere here...
Sep 25, 2017, 3:30 pm
#47
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Sep 25, 2017, 7:04 pm
#49
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Empty shell as of now, for sure. As usual AF have set the expectations quite high, using their brilliant communication skills (and consultancies). I guess the first pax to FOR and SEZ might be a bit disappointed by the hard product of the A340 if AF do not upgrade the cabins in the meantime. And unfortunately they are very much less brilliant at doing it fast than communicating (ding ding ding NEV and BEST). I really appreciate they have designed new uniforms and amenity kits though that does not make an airline.
Silly venture in the long run, not so sure. A step by step approach to shift a - significant? - part of their operations to an hybrid airline, testing and learning to scale the model like startups do is pretty smart IMO. Like others on this board I see a bit of Silkair, also Scoot, with an AF touch of class. Some details such as the VR headset for J pax will be quite interesting to follow. AF might have decided to crack the future model of flying eventhough the path to success is exceptionally difficult.
I nonetheless fear Joon is really an AF baby by being a great idea poorly executed.
Silly venture in the long run, not so sure. A step by step approach to shift a - significant? - part of their operations to an hybrid airline, testing and learning to scale the model like startups do is pretty smart IMO. Like others on this board I see a bit of Silkair, also Scoot, with an AF touch of class. Some details such as the VR headset for J pax will be quite interesting to follow. AF might have decided to crack the future model of flying eventhough the path to success is exceptionally difficult.
I nonetheless fear Joon is really an AF baby by being a great idea poorly executed.
Sep 25, 2017, 8:57 pm
#50
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,589
I think that at least for a start it will just be the AF product with cosmetic changes. The #1 goal is to pay the staff less. On the ground the gains come from less employees and more automation, a few more fees (more basic tickets and a la carte iptions) and in the air a similar product but with cheaper cabin crews and some marginal concessions from the pilots. They do as well as they can given the constraints, the pilots are powerful and their skills are in-demand (at the moment), rhe orher employees are easier to subject to market rules.
Then the execution will indeed be the challenge: will they keep the high-end market and get back some of the low-end? Will margins come back? What will the morale be like? And how will all those competing brands and products make sense ?
Joon Air France Hop KLM Transavia Economy Economy Comfort Premium Economy by Joon or by AF European business by AF by Hop by Joon by KLM long haul business by KLM by AF by Joon La Premiere Flying Blue ivory silver gold platinum platinum for life platinum ultimate club 2000 skipper
Even for employees it might be a little confusing.
Then the execution will indeed be the challenge: will they keep the high-end market and get back some of the low-end? Will margins come back? What will the morale be like? And how will all those competing brands and products make sense ?
Joon Air France Hop KLM Transavia Economy Economy Comfort Premium Economy by Joon or by AF European business by AF by Hop by Joon by KLM long haul business by KLM by AF by Joon La Premiere Flying Blue ivory silver gold platinum platinum for life platinum ultimate club 2000 skipper
Even for employees it might be a little confusing.
Sep 25, 2017, 11:37 pm
#51
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La Tribune seems skeptical too
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...es-751645.html
For the uniforms, I liked the following information from this article :
”Loin de la stratégie de montée en gamme mise en place par l'ancien Pdg Alexandre de Juniac, Joon a choisi la « rupture » pour les uniformes de son personnel de bord, en doudoune sans manches et baskets blanches conçus avec des matériaux recyclés ŕ partir de bouteilles en plastique”
It says that Joon uniforms will be made from recycled materials (plastic bottles). This is far from Christian Lacroix uniforms
Those millenials doesn’t have a clue about the French chic
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...es-751645.html
For the uniforms, I liked the following information from this article :
”Loin de la stratégie de montée en gamme mise en place par l'ancien Pdg Alexandre de Juniac, Joon a choisi la « rupture » pour les uniformes de son personnel de bord, en doudoune sans manches et baskets blanches conçus avec des matériaux recyclés ŕ partir de bouteilles en plastique”
It says that Joon uniforms will be made from recycled materials (plastic bottles). This is far from Christian Lacroix uniforms
Those millenials doesn’t have a clue about the French chic
Sep 26, 2017, 12:09 am
#52
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That is nasty. Everyone who has ever worn synthetic (=plastic) clothes while doing physical tasks knows that it is not a suitable material. Gets all sticky, sweaty and smelly!
Sep 26, 2017, 12:54 am
#53
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 8,764
I see KLM is launching Fortaleza as well, complementing the JOON schedule. KL on days 1,4,6; JOON on days 5,7.
Seems a fairly play-it-safe route launch in that sense. Probably supported by good subsidies on airport charges.
I doubt many millenials will be overly concerned to make sure they are flying on the JOON days.
http://www.routesonline.com/newshttp...h-in-may-2018/
Seems a fairly play-it-safe route launch in that sense. Probably supported by good subsidies on airport charges.
I doubt many millenials will be overly concerned to make sure they are flying on the JOON days.
http://www.routesonline.com/newshttp...h-in-may-2018/
Sep 26, 2017, 4:01 am
#54
Join Date: Sep 2014
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I have received an email from Air France Spain informing that Joon will be taking over the CDG-BCN route and explaining that AF will no longer fly to destinations served by Joon.
According to AF, the development of Joon is "good news" for me. "Benefits" include "a free beverage in economy class" and "catering for sale on board at any time of the day"". What the email fails to mention is that we currently receive snacks etc. for free. Nice way to spin a downgrade in service!
I can see the reason for sending Joon to BCN as the new lower cost brand may in the future be able to feed traffic to some of the longhaul lowcost operations coming out of BCN, and vice versa.
Yet I can't help feeling saddened that AF planes will no longer be serving this route.
According to AF, the development of Joon is "good news" for me. "Benefits" include "a free beverage in economy class" and "catering for sale on board at any time of the day"". What the email fails to mention is that we currently receive snacks etc. for free. Nice way to spin a downgrade in service!
I can see the reason for sending Joon to BCN as the new lower cost brand may in the future be able to feed traffic to some of the longhaul lowcost operations coming out of BCN, and vice versa.
Yet I can't help feeling saddened that AF planes will no longer be serving this route.
Sep 26, 2017, 5:13 am
#55
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I see KLM is launching Fortaleza as well, complementing the JOON schedule. KL on days 1,4,6; JOON on days 5,7.
Seems a fairly play-it-safe route launch in that sense. Probably supported by good subsidies on airport charges.
I doubt many millenials will be overly concerned to make sure they are flying on the JOON days.
http://www.routesonline.com/newshttp...h-in-may-2018/
Seems a fairly play-it-safe route launch in that sense. Probably supported by good subsidies on airport charges.
I doubt many millenials will be overly concerned to make sure they are flying on the JOON days.
http://www.routesonline.com/newshttp...h-in-may-2018/
Will Joon passengers be able to rebook freely between JN and KL?
(After all, the difference isn’t too big, for KL and JN uniforms are blue and there is no onboard WiFi for the connected millenials on board)
Sep 26, 2017, 6:27 am
#56
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Sep 26, 2017, 11:40 am
#57
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Valencia, Paris
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I have received an email from Air France Spain informing that Joon will be taking over the CDG-BCN route and explaining that AF will no longer fly to destinations served by Joon.
According to AF, the development of Joon is "good news" for me. "Benefits" include "a free beverage in economy class" and "catering for sale on board at any time of the day"". What the email fails to mention is that we currently receive snacks etc. for free. Nice way to spin a downgrade in service!
I can see the reason for sending Joon to BCN as the new lower cost brand may in the future be able to feed traffic to some of the longhaul lowcost operations coming out of BCN, and vice versa.
Yet I can't help feeling saddened that AF planes will no longer be serving this route.
According to AF, the development of Joon is "good news" for me. "Benefits" include "a free beverage in economy class" and "catering for sale on board at any time of the day"". What the email fails to mention is that we currently receive snacks etc. for free. Nice way to spin a downgrade in service!
I can see the reason for sending Joon to BCN as the new lower cost brand may in the future be able to feed traffic to some of the longhaul lowcost operations coming out of BCN, and vice versa.
Yet I can't help feeling saddened that AF planes will no longer be serving this route.
From BCN you will see BA, LH, LX, KL, OS planes, even AZ (!!) but not AF. Sad.
Sep 26, 2017, 3:35 pm
#58
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I like much better what KL have done with BCN to AMS - you can avoid Transavia and take the mainline KLM flights, which is what I always do.
Apart from the obvious downgrade in service with the arrival of Joon, I strongly dislike the marketing I am seeing. Horrible uniforms. Trying to be trendy for the sake of being trendy. It reminds of Vueling, another airline I like to avoid wherever possible!
Sep 26, 2017, 4:09 pm
#59
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I agree. Crazy idea and very sad to not have the mainline from hub/capital city of the home country (CDG) to another capital city (LIS, TXL) or to a very important regional capital (which could become a capital city one day, but that’s another subject) : BCN
OPO : OK for Joon, but why not Transavia and avoid all this Joon thing and associated costs ??
OPO : OK for Joon, but why not Transavia and avoid all this Joon thing and associated costs ??
Sep 26, 2017, 9:52 pm
#60
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I think the multiplicity of brands is ridiculous, but Joon as 'AF minus' is still different in concept from Transavia as 'expensive failed easyJet clone'.