What will be JOON's first [last] routes?
Sep 25, 2017, 1:07 am
#31
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 🇸🇬 🇭🇰 🇫🇷
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Originally Posted by Joon
Does the Flying Blue program apply to Joon?
Yes, flying with Joon lets you earn Miles. And you can use your Miles to buy a Joon ticket.
Can I use my Flying Blue Silver, Gold or Platinum benefits on my Joon flight?
Yes, all benefits linked to your Flying Blue card are also valid on Joon flights.
Can I go to a lounge before my Joon flight?
If you travel in a Business cabin, or if you're a Flying Blue Gold or Platinum member, you have access to the Air France lounges or one of the lounges of its partners, no matter your departure airport (excluding Porto).
Yes, flying with Joon lets you earn Miles. And you can use your Miles to buy a Joon ticket.
Can I use my Flying Blue Silver, Gold or Platinum benefits on my Joon flight?
Yes, all benefits linked to your Flying Blue card are also valid on Joon flights.
Can I go to a lounge before my Joon flight?
If you travel in a Business cabin, or if you're a Flying Blue Gold or Platinum member, you have access to the Air France lounges or one of the lounges of its partners, no matter your departure airport (excluding Porto).
Last edited by bodory; Sep 25, 2017 at 1:16 am
Sep 25, 2017, 1:11 am
#32
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 🇸🇬 🇭🇰 🇫🇷
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Sep 25, 2017, 1:54 am
#33
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 179
Sep 25, 2017, 2:12 am
#35
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Posts: 7,832
I *really* don't get it.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
- A CEO without balls has to create some "usine a gaz" to please the unions
- some bureaucrats/civil servant types who get their ideas about what customers need from some commonplace blabla ("Millenials are the thing now")
- are concerned about the brand perception ("not low cost", "has to be young", "has to show our heritage") and therefore spend a lot of time on finding a grandiose name
- spend a lot of time and money on the looks (colour, dress code)
- no time is spent on properly thinking through how this is being set up and executed, operations is improvised
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
Sep 25, 2017, 2:29 am
#36
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 179
@SG
"In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today"
-> why not
"the same airline code as today... "
-> not totally OK to keep exact same flight number
Why? Because I want to know which airline I am flying with, as early as when I buy a ticket.
"In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today"
-> why not
"the same airline code as today... "
-> not totally OK to keep exact same flight number
Why? Because I want to know which airline I am flying with, as early as when I buy a ticket.
Sep 25, 2017, 3:37 am
#38
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Sep 25, 2017, 3:47 am
#39
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I *really* don't get it.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
There is a website for a new airline whose main proposition is that FAs are dressed in casual chic and that they have to wear white sneakers (the ones that get dirty easily). They add that there will be buy-on-board without saying so, but to be millenial-compatible they emphasise that some will be "bio".
They also advertise a couple of destinations, such as Berlin and Lisbon. So I tried a booking for CDG-TXL and CDG-LIS in March and May of next year (I presume that by then things should be in full swing).
During the loading of the fares the "normal" AF image pops up (=the same you would see when you do a booking on the traditional AF website). Then schedules and fares are displayed, on a traditional AF website layout, with just some blue coloured stain and the word JOON added on top. The flights: all say "operated by Air France", schedules and fares look very much like what used to exist. Fare structure is LIGHT, STANDARD and FLEX in Eco. Business Class is all BUSINESS FLEX.
To check, I went to the main AF website and searched for fares for the same dates. Result: the same schedules, the same fares come up, but also with the blue JOON frame. In both cases flight numbers are AF.
In other words: it's the same flights as today, the same fares as today, the same airline code as today...
BUT: if you search for Porto, either through the AF or the JOON website, you don't get the blue coloured blob. But same fare structure, schedules, AF flight numbers on both sites.
So, what is this JOON thing? I fly on the same flights as before, except that I have a big blue blob of paint on the booking engine site. If I access through the JOON site I in addition get some hype about their dress code, but I still get booked on the same flights at the same fares as when going through the traditional AF website.
The other thing I don't get: I thought that JOON was supposed to take over routes in the AF network that traditional AF couldn't run profitably? But how does flying to *new* destinations such as Fortaleza and Seychelles improve the profitability of existing AF routes like Bangkok, Lima or Havana (which I presume are not very profitable, but I could be wrong. Insert any others that are)?
This entire JOON smells like an Air France idea from the old days:
- A CEO without balls has to create some "usine a gaz" to please the unions
- some bureaucrats/civil servant types who get their ideas about what customers need from some commonplace blabla ("Millenials are the thing now")
- are concerned about the brand perception ("not low cost", "has to be young", "has to show our heritage") and therefore spend a lot of time on finding a grandiose name
- spend a lot of time and money on the looks (colour, dress code)
- no time is spent on properly thinking through how this is being set up and executed, operations is improvised
I like the USB ports, can we please have that on all planes, not just promised for JOON flights which in the end will still be the old AF planes without them. I like having flights to Fortaleza and the Seychelles in some comfort. Fair enough.
But does it require the creation of a new airline to have USB ports and flights to Fortaleza? Or isn't this a new airline? Or is it, and they will have separate JOON staff at airports, separate counters, separate customer service, separate call centre staff? Hence my initial thought, I *really* don't get it.
I know this is early days and things may evolve, and I in fact expect distinct JOON planes to fly the flights. I know that existing routes will be added to the JOON longhaul network (do I remember correctly KIX?).
But still, from what we have seen from AF in the past and with some business sense my hunch is that this has "bad idea" written all over it. Over-complex conceptually, too much reliance on flamboyant marketing and meaningless design elements, half-baked operational setup. The old AF.
I'll probably fly them when I need to go to those places, nothing wrong with it. This comment is purely from the standpoint of a confused customer and armchair CEO.
Note to self: For BCN, LIS, etc., route through AMS on KLM.
Sep 25, 2017, 3:49 am
#40
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Sep 25, 2017, 3:57 am
#41
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Probably the change in alphabetical order in going from French to English confused someone.
Sep 25, 2017, 4:59 am
#42
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: AF/KL FB Plat ; A3 Gold ; HH Gold ; IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 2,375
Joon fares might be different from AF fares in the future. The cheap one way fares in X V R N classes have some advanced purchase requirements attached to them usually, perhaps for Joon flights all fares will be "one way" like what SAS does, and yield management will decide what booking class to open or close. Now, even on rather empty flight N9R9V9X9, impossible to book a cheap one way fare on an AF flight close to departure date.
Also, it might be that Joon is a Troyan horse: all (new?) FA will eventually get a Joon contract and by the end of the experience, most or all medium haul will be Joon, without skyteam benefits. A bit like Singapore Air vs Silk Air, Aegean vs Olympic, Lufthansa vs Germanwings etc.
Also, it might be that Joon is a Troyan horse: all (new?) FA will eventually get a Joon contract and by the end of the experience, most or all medium haul will be Joon, without skyteam benefits. A bit like Singapore Air vs Silk Air, Aegean vs Olympic, Lufthansa vs Germanwings etc.
Sep 25, 2017, 7:02 am
#43
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
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Joon fares might be different from AF fares in the future. The cheap one way fares in X V R N classes have some advanced purchase requirements attached to them usually, perhaps for Joon flights all fares will be "one way" like what SAS does, and yield management will decide what booking class to open or close.
Sep 25, 2017, 8:02 am
#44
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 179
The way I see it, it does not matter whatsoever that the marketing makes no sense at all. That was never the point. It was decided to have new T&C for CC, by all means. They probably have done the homework well enough and know they will not lose too many AF customers because of this gymnastics. BTW I do not expect fares to remain "low" or "low but flexible". The only question is ... was this really needed?
Sep 25, 2017, 10:55 am
#45
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,832
A German industry publication, airliners.de, ran an article entitled "JOON - the revolution that fails to be revolutionary". http://www.aero.de/news-27555/Joon--...keine-ist.html
Too lazy to translate, this is a Google translation:
Too lazy to translate, this is a Google translation:
PARIS - As of 1 December, all five daily Air France flights between Berlin-Tegel and Paris-CDG will be taken over by the new subsidiary, Joon. The same applies to all previous Air France flights from Paris to Lisbon, Porto and Barcelona.
The lines will all be served with Airbus A320 jets with the new blue and white Joon-Livery, from 39 euros per route. "We chose these routes because they have a strong presence among low-cost airlines and we have to refresh our offer," said Jean-Michel Mathieu today in Paris, CEO of the new Air France subsidiary.
"Joon is a lever for Air France to go back into the offensive," emphasizes Air France CEO Franck Terner, "Joon stands for our renewed conquest of the market and is an innovation laboratory whose results will later be transferred to the whole of Air France could. "
At the beginning of the summer schedule 2018 at the end of March Joon then also starts long-haul flights with modernized Airbus A340-300, which are still flying for the parent company. The first destinations are Fortaleza in Brazil (twice a week, starting at 249 euros each way), where Joon is to take passengers to the Brazilian low-cost airline GOL.
Three times a week Mahé is served in the Seychelles (from 299 euros), both destinations are currently not in the Air France network.
Air Frances's goal is to save costs. The top management did not provide any information on the amount of the savings. However, unlike Eurowings on long-haul routes or the new IAG brand level, it places less emphasis on independence, but emphasizes the close ties to Air France to guarantee product consistency, especially for those who change to a mother's flight in CDG.
Joon, like Air France, offers three classes: Business, Premium Economy and Economy. "Joon is said to be more competitive through higher productivity and greater efficiency," said Jean-Michel Mathieu, head of the company. Significant can not be the saving effects, the pilots hardly made concessions.
"Our pilots will fly aircraft from both brands, so Air France and Joon," says Mathieu. Only cabin occupations, of which 140 are currently recruited, earn less than their colleagues at the company's parent company.
By 2020, Joon wants to employ a thousand of its own flight attendants. By then, the currently planned maximum size of the Joon fleet from 18 A320 and ten long-haul aircraft should be reached. From 2019, new A350s will be part of the Joon long-haul fleet and replace the old A340.
Digital, without WLAN
The branding of Joon is aimed at a younger target group, the so-called Millennials. However, this concept did not appear today in the presentation in Paris. The fact that neither the short-range jets (such as for Lufthansa or Norwegian) and not even the A340 have long-distance access via the internet is likely to cause little enthusiasm among the targeted clientele.
Air France-KLM is in the industry far behind in the offer of Internet on board, only the new A350 will be equipped as of 2019 as standard. Air France is trying to position Joon as "chic, declined, digital and environmentally friendly", Franck Terner said the brand wanted to be "innovative and surprising".
White sneakers for the flight attendants
Joon is not a low-cost airline, but a hybrid, so passengers in all cabins receive hot drinks, water and orange juice free of charge, and on long distances, up to two meals are also included. There should be a "light" option on the luggage, without baggage.
Sneakers for the flight attendants
Sneakers for the flight attendants, © Air France
Joon is to have its own license (AOC) in December, but will first fly under Air France flight numbers. The logo was deliberately placed on the accent (the blue slash) to lean against the mother.
All in all, the question remains why Air France is introducing such a brand with a great deal of effort, which hardly leads to its core problem of high costs. It was significant that in Paris, the two brand leaders emphasized twice that Joon "is the first in aviation" to introduce a "revolution": the cabin crew wearing white blue socks-like uniforms white shoes.
However, the high-paying branding experts did not do their homework: in the US, Southwest Airlines had around 20 years of cabin crew in sneakers for 201 years. Is this a good omen for Joon?
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The lines will all be served with Airbus A320 jets with the new blue and white Joon-Livery, from 39 euros per route. "We chose these routes because they have a strong presence among low-cost airlines and we have to refresh our offer," said Jean-Michel Mathieu today in Paris, CEO of the new Air France subsidiary.
"Joon is a lever for Air France to go back into the offensive," emphasizes Air France CEO Franck Terner, "Joon stands for our renewed conquest of the market and is an innovation laboratory whose results will later be transferred to the whole of Air France could. "
At the beginning of the summer schedule 2018 at the end of March Joon then also starts long-haul flights with modernized Airbus A340-300, which are still flying for the parent company. The first destinations are Fortaleza in Brazil (twice a week, starting at 249 euros each way), where Joon is to take passengers to the Brazilian low-cost airline GOL.
Three times a week Mahé is served in the Seychelles (from 299 euros), both destinations are currently not in the Air France network.
Air Frances's goal is to save costs. The top management did not provide any information on the amount of the savings. However, unlike Eurowings on long-haul routes or the new IAG brand level, it places less emphasis on independence, but emphasizes the close ties to Air France to guarantee product consistency, especially for those who change to a mother's flight in CDG.
Joon, like Air France, offers three classes: Business, Premium Economy and Economy. "Joon is said to be more competitive through higher productivity and greater efficiency," said Jean-Michel Mathieu, head of the company. Significant can not be the saving effects, the pilots hardly made concessions.
"Our pilots will fly aircraft from both brands, so Air France and Joon," says Mathieu. Only cabin occupations, of which 140 are currently recruited, earn less than their colleagues at the company's parent company.
By 2020, Joon wants to employ a thousand of its own flight attendants. By then, the currently planned maximum size of the Joon fleet from 18 A320 and ten long-haul aircraft should be reached. From 2019, new A350s will be part of the Joon long-haul fleet and replace the old A340.
Digital, without WLAN
The branding of Joon is aimed at a younger target group, the so-called Millennials. However, this concept did not appear today in the presentation in Paris. The fact that neither the short-range jets (such as for Lufthansa or Norwegian) and not even the A340 have long-distance access via the internet is likely to cause little enthusiasm among the targeted clientele.
Air France-KLM is in the industry far behind in the offer of Internet on board, only the new A350 will be equipped as of 2019 as standard. Air France is trying to position Joon as "chic, declined, digital and environmentally friendly", Franck Terner said the brand wanted to be "innovative and surprising".
White sneakers for the flight attendants
Joon is not a low-cost airline, but a hybrid, so passengers in all cabins receive hot drinks, water and orange juice free of charge, and on long distances, up to two meals are also included. There should be a "light" option on the luggage, without baggage.
Sneakers for the flight attendants
Sneakers for the flight attendants, © Air France
Joon is to have its own license (AOC) in December, but will first fly under Air France flight numbers. The logo was deliberately placed on the accent (the blue slash) to lean against the mother.
All in all, the question remains why Air France is introducing such a brand with a great deal of effort, which hardly leads to its core problem of high costs. It was significant that in Paris, the two brand leaders emphasized twice that Joon "is the first in aviation" to introduce a "revolution": the cabin crew wearing white blue socks-like uniforms white shoes.
However, the high-paying branding experts did not do their homework: in the US, Southwest Airlines had around 20 years of cabin crew in sneakers for 201 years. Is this a good omen for Joon?
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Last edited by San Gottardo; Sep 25, 2017 at 11:13 am
