ADP (Paris Airport management) invests in faster border controls

Old Nov 30, 16, 1:47 pm
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Zembla View Post
I was there at the same day, around the same time. I can confirm the enormous chaos you reported. I stood there for 30 seconds to assess the situation, and I took...the regular line! I ignored Sky Priority and Parafes completely. Took me about 15 minutes, not joking.

Iv'e done this before. During extremely busy times you will see that Sky Priority and Parafes barely move, whilst the regular line actually progresses. In fact, when it's as busy as the photos you showed, the regular line is more than twice as fast. Empirically proven in the past with colleagues who used the priority lines and came through in more than double the time than me opting for the regular line.
Too bad that we missed each other in this mess. It would have made the wait more pleasant

Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Sure, LHR is already quite a bit better, but even that is a bit slow compared to the OSL and HEL equivalent which seem to work like a breeze.
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
IME the parafes gates are comparable to the old LHR e-gates. The new LHR e-gates are much faster and I am not sure that I notice much difference between those ones and the HEL ones (don't know about OSL).
LHR gates are indeed a bit faster than PARAFES but the difference is not huge. But I clearly prefer the LHR ones.

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Fingerprint technology is always going to be more problematic with elderly passengers (tremors, difficulty in lifting the arm and keeping the hand in position, etc...). It was an issue for my mother.
You know...I think technology is a problem for many people. PARAFES has clearly some inconveniences but it is quite simple to use (it is showing you which fingers you can use). But I am very often amazed by the number of people who are completely lost, putting any finger, not looking at the very simple instructions, etc. Same for check-in kiosks : as simple as they are to use, a very significant number of people are totally unable to use them without help.
The US kiosks are also a problem for many pax, especially at the fingerprints and picture step.
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:07 pm
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Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
The US kiosks are also a problem for many pax, especially at the fingerprints and picture step.
Well, I'm not sure if it happens a lot or not, but both my GF and I had to make several tries at MIA at the fingerprinting step before it recognized us (we were returning ESTA). I even had to change hands for the APC to recognize me (On the other hand, I never had an issue with PARAFE). Hopefully I will test that at other US airports very soon
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
LHR gates are indeed a bit faster than PARAFES but the difference is not huge. But I clearly prefer the LHR ones.
It sounds like you are referring to the older LHR e-gates. The newer ones (such as in T5 now) are IME considerably faster.

You know...I think technology is a problem for many people. PARAFES has clearly some inconveniences but it is quite simple to use (it is showing you which fingers you can use). But I am very often amazed by the number of people who are completely lost, putting any finger, not looking at the very simple instructions, etc. Same for check-in kiosks : as simple as they are to use, a very significant number of people are totally unable to use them without help.
That is true. With any technology, some individuals will not have the cognitive abilities to use them effectively. However, there is in addition a specific problem with fingerprint technology for older people: even with a perfect understanding of how it works and what you are expected to do, you are going to struggle to use facilities that rely on fingerprint technology if your hands are shaky, if you cannot maintain sufficient pressure (or the reverse) with your finger for a certain period, if your fingerprints are fading/become less distinct with diminution in skin elasticity etc... these are common problems for elderly persons above a certain age and contributes to explaining why fingerprint technology is especially challenging for the elderly.
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Old Nov 30, 16, 8:04 pm
  #64  
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Originally Posted by lynxy View Post
The original announcement said exactly that fingerprint will work first, and the face recognition is in certification with French authorities:
"Still waiting for approval from French authorities. In case they don't approve the face recognition methodology, the machines will also be able to work with the current, i.e. register your fingerprint, method"
I guess that we have a different reading of French.
The announcement stated that e-gates will be based on facial recognition so that all EU passports could use them. The only caveat was that they would also use finger prints IF the French government did not allow face recognition.
I guess that this is what is happening. How could France not show that it is a very special country and its bureaucracy accepts what has become the norm almost everywhere?

BTW, LHR e-gates with facial recognition are super fast.
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Old Dec 1, 16, 12:43 am
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Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
You know...I think technology is a problem for many people. PARAFES has clearly some inconveniences but it is quite simple to use (it is showing you which fingers you can use). But I am very often amazed by the number of people who are completely lost, putting any finger, not looking at the very simple instructions, etc. Same for check-in kiosks : as simple as they are to use, a very significant number of people are totally unable to use them without help.
The US kiosks are also a problem for many pax, especially at the fingerprints and picture step.
Ah ah, no, that's not the way things work my friend There is no prize for machines which you and I find very simple to use because we know them inside out and have for years. Whether the instructions are "very simple" or not is precisely measured by how many people have problems using them, and on that front, the evidence against the Parafes machines is pretty damning.

People are referring to the old LHR machines and that's a good example: people with French passports often had trouble with the machines as the French cover had a different weight to the UK one. It was never a problem for me because I always knew exactly what hand pressure to use when holding my passport to make it work. It does not mean that the machines did not have a problem and the people did. It was the machines which had the problem even if knowledgeable people could adapt to them.

The quality of the machines is precisely measured by its tolerance/adaptability to users of different shapes, skills, cultures and to a process that can be understood by such different people. Too many people 'fail' with Parafes for it to be good, and that is despite it being privileged since only registered foreign people use them, ie the bulk of the people most likely to find it difficult to use such machines (foreign, elderly, occasional pax) do not even try. By contrast, the OSL machines, used by everyone seem to miraculously adapt to where people stand, where they look and all the rest. That is the difference between 'very simple' and not.

With the US kiosks, I think the issue is not the machines but the amount of things people have to answer and do. The only machine element is that I often see people who do not realise they need to "announce" which hand they will use for the fingerprints before putting their fingers on.
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Old Dec 1, 16, 12:55 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
It sounds like you are referring to the older LHR e-gates. The newer ones (such as in T5 now) are IME considerably faster.
Good. I was speaking about the T4 ones.

Originally Posted by brunos View Post
I guess that this is what is happening. How could France not show that it is a very special country and its bureaucracy accepts what has become the norm almost everywhere?
This is called "exception Française"

Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Ah ah, no, that's not the way things work my friend There is no prize for machines which you and I find very simple to use because we know them inside out and have for years. Whether the instructions are "very simple" or not is precisely measured by how many people have problems using them, and on that front, the evidence against the Parafes machines is pretty damning.
ah ah, that's right
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Old Dec 1, 16, 3:39 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
People are referring to the old LHR machines and that's a good example: people with French passports often had trouble with the machines as the French cover had a different weight to the UK one. It was never a problem for me because I always knew exactly what hand pressure to use when holding my passport to make it work. It does not mean that the machines did not have a problem and the people did. It was the machines which had the problem even if knowledgeable people could adapt to them.
Another issue with the old machines was the need to position yourself carefully for the machine to recognise your face. The new ones have a much better ability at identifying up a face from the environment and will recognise almost instantaneously.
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Old Dec 1, 16, 10:55 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Another issue with the old machines was the need to position yourself carefully for the machine to recognise your face. The new ones have a much better ability at identifying up a face from the environment and will recognise almost instantaneously.
I wouldsn't say they are considerably faster, they are a bit faster.

The real difference is that there are considerably, considerably more of them, and in all UK airports - and they are almost always all functioning, and they have people actually encouraging you to use them...

As a comparison, CDG 2E = 3 Parafes (rarely all working at the same time)/ LHR T5 = 20 (roughly).

Alternatively ORY = 0, LCY = 12... That's what makes it seem significantly faster
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Old Dec 1, 16, 12:02 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Another issue with the old machines was the need to position yourself carefully for the machine to recognise your face. The new ones have a much better ability at identifying up a face from the environment and will recognise almost instantaneously.
Yes for instance they use multi positions for the photo instead of you needing to adapt. Still Oslo wins on that front again with cameras that automatically move to align with your face (as opposed to choosing from three fixed positions at lhr). Simple but clever.
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Old Dec 1, 16, 1:48 pm
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Originally Posted by jsfr View Post

Alternatively ORY = 0,
While there are roughly 10 PARAFES machines at Orly, none of them seem to every work so 0 is the appropriate number

Have encountered some extreme queues at Orly Sud because of understaffing and PARAFES not working... This summer seeing a queue stretch out all the way from passport gates at Orly Ouest Hall 3 down to the Paul in Hall 4 wasn't a foreign sight either...
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Old Dec 1, 16, 4:47 pm
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We keep talking about the PARAFES not working very well in CDG but what about the the new gates in AMS ? They seems to be working 50% of the time =D
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Old Dec 2, 16, 2:50 am
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Originally Posted by Mirk View Post
We keep talking about the PARAFES not working very well in CDG but what about the the new gates in AMS ? They seems to be working 50% of the time =D
Last time I went through they were working 50% of the time... I arrived around 0650 and cleared immigration around 0710. At about 0700 the gates were switched on

Interestingly, several additional countries (including the US, and I think others like Japan and Australia) can use the gates for exit control, though I've not tried that myself yet.
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Old Dec 2, 16, 5:40 pm
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Somehow I managed to avoid getting caught up in the border control mess until today.

After my GVA-CDG flight swapped from an A321 to an A320, and after the incoming equipment arrived 23 minutes late, and after we arrived CDG about 35 minutes late, and after having to take a bus from the plane to 2F, I got stuck in the worst emmigration queue I've ever seen at CDG (though probably not the worst ever).

Both the regular and No 1 lines were backed up well past the start of the maze and barely moving. The agents at the start of the queue refused to do anything about short connections, though if you were lucky enough to make it about half way through and get the attention of one of the staff, you could cut the remainder of the line and maybe make your flight.

There was about 1 booth serving the "All Passports" lane, as of the other two lines nominally serving All Passports, one was fully occupied with the de facto short connections queue, and the other was poorly separated from the "EU Passports" lane and so was largely serving that queue instead.

And then of course the bus to 2M. In the end, my 1h50 connection (normally plenty of time) left me running to the gate after boarding had largely finished, making the flight with perhaps 5 minutes to spare. So I guess for the foreseeable future my new strategy will be (1) avoid CDG, and if not possible (2) minimum 3h00 connection time.

As a side note, JFK T1 now has Pre-√ in place (presumably for LH).
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Old Dec 4, 16, 5:54 pm
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It appears the 2G - 2E connections are still pretty decent. Queues in 2G have become longer too, but according to this thread they do not seem to be among the worst.
Border control took me 10-20 min for my last couple of trips and a total connection time of max 45 min.
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Old Dec 5, 16, 5:13 pm
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Originally Posted by bennos View Post
As a side note, JFK T1 now has Pre-√ in place (presumably for LH).
A few weeks ago I was flying JFK-ORY but checked in for my first segment with DL. I got TSA PRE on the JFK-ORY BP, but it was a joke. You are to the front of the queue, but once your BP is scanned, you have to join one of the large queues, take out your laptop, and remove your shoes. You are, however, sent to through the metal detector instead of the nude-scope. The only real advantage of having PRE at T1 is that you get to skip the first queue.
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