ADP (Paris Airport management) invests in faster border controls

Old Nov 23, 16, 9:17 pm
  #46  
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Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
As for HKG, as mentioned above frequent flyers can easily get setup to use the E-Gates so there should never be a wait.
I must say that, in terms of efficiency, HKG is my favourite automated system: although it is one of these systems that requires pre-registration, at least for non-residents getting access through an FFP/frequent visitor status, it is IME faster than many other systems in terms of responsiveness in addition to having a large number of machines available.
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Old Nov 24, 16, 6:19 am
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Originally Posted by brunos View Post
You say "typically", so why don't you enroll in the Frequent Visitor program. It is open to the FFP members of most airlines and allows you to use your passport on the e-gates once your fingerprints have been taken at enrollment.
Hmm, last time I looked I don't think Delta was a participating FFP (though it looks like they are now), and I typically don't meet the minimum visit requirement otherwise. (I don't think I've been to HKG more than twice in the same year, and that's my travel pattern in general, though the Schengen area taken as a whole is an exception.) I'll look at it again next time I find myself there. (Thanks for the nudge.)

That being said, I have numerous family/friends who use the "human" chanel and they ahev never had to wait more than 20 minutes. You even have staff that direct you between A and B areas if one area ifs more crowded than the other.
For some reason I always seems to get stuck in line after large groups of mainland shopping tourists...

Originally Posted by NickB View Post
The purpose of my post was not to express a view as to whether the USA should be given a star for being a good boy at the top of the class or be made to sit on the naughty step. It was meant essentially as a factual statement, highlighting some relevant context for the readers of this board: many Europeans, and in particular many of the readers of this forum, have no access to GE.

So, knowing that GE kiosks work well and that there are plenty of them is interesting... in the same way as, say, knowing whether automated kiosks for EAC nationals at Kigali airport work well might be interesting
That's why the half of my post that you trimmed talked about the US APC kiosks, which are not the same as GE, and can be used by any return ESTA visitor without pre-registration.

Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
Add another country to that expensive list in the UK. Yes it's still part of the EU. You can sign up for their Registered Traveler program as an American citizen (or several other countries). It's been a huge timesaver for me when traveling to the UK.
I think the UK program was already mentioned by NickB, and I actually do qualify for that one, though I typically take the daytime flight from the US (arriving around 8pm) and can get a fast track card, so the time savings aren't as great for me.
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Old Nov 24, 16, 9:46 am
  #48  
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Originally Posted by bennos View Post
That's why the half of my post that you trimmed talked about the US APC kiosks, which are not the same as GE, and can be used by any return ESTA visitor without pre-registration.
Yes, I am aware of that and it was the very purpose of my initial post to highlight the difference between the installation of APC kiosks, of high relevance to many on this forum, and GE, of much lower relevance to many readers here. Anyway perhaps we should move away from the meta-discussion...
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Old Nov 26, 16, 11:38 am
  #49  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
The purpose of my post was not to express a view as to whether the USA should be given a star for being a good boy at the top of the class or be made to sit on the naughty step. It was meant essentially as a factual statement, highlighting some relevant context for the readers of this board: many Europeans, and in particular many of the readers of this forum, have no access to GE.

So, knowing that GE kiosks work well and that there are plenty of them is interesting... in the same way as, say, knowing whether automated kiosks for EAC nationals at Kigali airport work well might be interesting, i.e. in the sense of being capable of satisfying intellectual curiosity ... but with little practical significance for many here, bearing in mind the readership. I would not have made the same comment on the KL, BA or LH forum, where the existence of GE and how well it functions is of far greater immediate relevance to a much larger proportion of the readers of those fora than is the case here.
C'mon...

People eligible for EU biometric controls by virtue of their EU/EEA citizenship or residence: more than 520 million
People eligible for Global Entry by virtue of their citizenship or US residence: more than 780 million
Entire population of the EAC countries: 167 million, with a much much much lower proportion/frequency of international air travel.

So I would think that GE is somewhat more relevant than any biometric control at Kigali would be. And not only for the size of the eligible population of travelers, but also for the size of the respective international air markets. Even for the readers of this forum, many of whom are not or not only French. Already many are Dutch because of the AF-KL link, so that already includes one country whose citizens can apply for GE, and then you have many Americans and Brits because of the language of this forum, so there you have another two countries with major GE-eligible population. Will there be a higher proportion of readers of the British Airways or Delta forum for whom this is relevant? Surely. Can it be dismissed as rather irrelevant in the AF forum? Don't think so.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 5:11 pm
  #50  
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
C'mon...

People eligible for EU biometric controls by virtue of their EU/EEA citizenship or residence: more than 520 million
People eligible for Global Entry by virtue of their citizenship or US residence: more than 780 million
Entire population of the EAC countries: 167 million, with a much much much lower proportion/frequency of international air travel.

So I would think that GE is somewhat more relevant than any biometric control at Kigali would be. And not only for the size of the eligible population of travelers, but also for the size of the respective international air markets. Even for the readers of this forum, many of whom are not or not only French. Already many are Dutch because of the AF-KL link, so that already includes one country whose citizens can apply for GE, and then you have many Americans and Brits because of the language of this forum, so there you have another two countries with major GE-eligible population. Will there be a higher proportion of readers of the British Airways or Delta forum for whom this is relevant? Surely. Can it be dismissed as rather irrelevant in thAF forum? Don't think so.
Oh, for goodness sake, you are dragging me back into that meta-discussion to justify myself. The point I was making was, I thought, relatively straightforward, namely that, for many readers on this board, GE did not have anywhere near the same significance as APC kiosks. I did not think that this would be remotely contentious.

If I were to hazard a wild guess, I would reckon that for every reader of this particular forum for is eligible to use GE, there are probably somewhere in the region of 100 who are eligible to use APC kiosks. In other words, I would hazard a wild guess that we have two orders of magnitude of difference between the two. Admittedly, this is no more (and cannot be anymore) than a wild guess. I am not sure that it would be hugely different from what your own guesstimate would be if had to guess.

I did not say that it was irrelevant and should not be mentioned. I was just putting some context which, I think, was missing from your post in which there was no differentiation between the two and both were placed side by side. Not that there was a need for you to differentiate. That was not your point so this is not a criticism of your initial post nor was my initial post a criticism either. But that does not mean that it was improper for me to put your post in some context.

As to Kigali, clearly this was a facetious comment which I did not think anybody would take at face value. But you are right that I should have put a smilie there to make it clear. OK, can we leave the meta-discussion now?
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Old Nov 27, 16, 10:29 pm
  #51  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Oh, for goodness sake, you are dragging me back into that meta-discussion to justify myself. The point I was making was, I thought, relatively straightforward, namely that, for many readers on this board, GE did not have anywhere near the same significance as APC kiosks. I did not think that this would be remotely contentious.

If I were to hazard a wild guess, I would reckon that for every reader of this particular forum for is eligible to use GE, there are probably somewhere in the region of 100 who are eligible to use APC kiosks. In other words, I would hazard a wild guess that we have two orders of magnitude of difference between the two. Admittedly, this is no more (and cannot be anymore) than a wild guess. I am not sure that it would be hugely different from what your own guesstimate would be if had to guess.

I did not say that it was irrelevant and should not be mentioned. I was just putting some context which, I think, was missing from your post in which there was no differentiation between the two and both were placed side by side. Not that there was a need for you to differentiate. That was not your point so this is not a criticism of your initial post nor was my initial post a criticism either. But that does not mean that it was improper for me to put your post in some context.

As to Kigali, clearly this was a facetious comment which I did not think anybody would take at face value. But you are right that I should have put a smilie there to make it clear. OK, can we leave the meta-discussion now?
Yep, we can

Indeed, I wouldn't guesstimate it was factor 100, but as you say that doesn't matter (in fact it would indeed be interesting to have statistics on where people are based, which airport they fly out of most often, and what passports they travel in, but there is no way of obtaining it, and for good reasons).

Good thing CDG is installing new biometric gates soon. Let's hope there'll be enough of them and that they work. T1 last night, all PARAFE gates out of order, as they are since several months
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Old Nov 29, 16, 4:36 am
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Originally Posted by Goldorak View Post
This morning it was absolute chaos at 2E immigration (arrivals) at 7am. About 4 booths open. Regular line had...hard to estimate but likely 1000-1500 persons in line (the room was completely filled). The skyP lane was full from its beginning. And PARAFES... (See picture below which speaks by itself). Of course one gate was not working and the 2 others were working very poorly (very slow or not functioning properly). And, ironically, I was standing in front of the sign displayed on the 2nd picture...no comment and Welcome to France
I was there at the same day, around the same time. I can confirm the enormous chaos you reported. I stood there for 30 seconds to assess the situation, and I took...the regular line! I ignored Sky Priority and Parafes completely. Took me about 15 minutes, not joking.

Iv'e done this before. During extremely busy times you will see that Sky Priority and Parafes barely move, whilst the regular line actually progresses. In fact, when it's as busy as the photos you showed, the regular line is more than twice as fast. Empirically proven in the past with colleagues who used the priority lines and came through in more than double the time than me opting for the regular line.
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:20 am
  #53  
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
T1 last night, all PARAFE gates out of order, as they are since several months
Originally Posted by Zembla View Post
Iv'e done this before. During extremely busy times you will see that Sky Priority and Parafes barely move, whilst the regular line actually progresses. In fact, when it's as busy as the photos you showed, the regular line is more than twice as fast. Empirically proven in the past with colleagues who used the priority lines and came through in more than double the time than me opting for the regular line.
I have had a more positive experience at 2A with Parafes working OK most times (although admittedly nowhere near the fastest machines on earth) and nothing like the 2E shambolic experience. However, I have tended to travel at relatively quieter times so could easily have switched to either #1 or regular if need be without it taking much more time in any event.

I wonder whether NCE has any plans to follow adp and invest in automated border control technology in the near future. Paging orbitmic...
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:31 am
  #54  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
I wonder whether NCE has any plans to follow adp and invest in automated border control technology in the near future. Paging orbitmic...
Always here my friend! I've heard of the Ministry's plans to install Parafe at NCE for years but am still to see any sign of it. When they finally introduced an entirely separate EU immigration route at T1, I thought this was finally it, and still hope so, but I have not seen anything coming yet. My sense is that the Ministry is broke and slowing down on equipment (hence, perhaps, AdP going its own separate route?) and I'd love NCE to do the same.

Incidentally, I keep getting more and more confirmation of how grossly inefficient the Parafe gates are compared to existing alternatives. Sure, LHR is already quite a bit better, but even that is a bit slow compared to the OSL and HEL equivalent which seem to work like a breeze. I'd personally estimate that it in the time one person clears Parafe, about 3-4 clear the OSL e-gates. I know speed is not everything but still...
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:44 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Always here my friend! I've heard of the Ministry's plans to install Parafe at NCE for years but am still to see any sign of it. When they finally introduced an entirely separate EU immigration route at T1, I thought this was finally it, and still hope so, but I have not seen anything coming yet. My sense is that the Ministry is broke and slowing down on equipment (hence, perhaps, AdP going its own separate route?) and I'd love NCE to do the same.
Thanks. I always found it strange that MRS had Parafes but not NCE.

Incidentally, I keep getting more and more confirmation of how grossly inefficient the Parafe gates are compared to existing alternatives. Sure, LHR is already quite a bit better, but even that is a bit slow compared to the OSL and HEL equivalent which seem to work like a breeze.
IME the parafes gates are comparable to the old LHR e-gates. The new LHR e-gates are much faster and I am not sure that I notice much difference between those ones and the HEL ones (don't know about OSL). On comparison, I would not have thought that it was quite as much as 3-4 but more like 2-ish but, in any event, that is still a huge difference (=twice the time) which builds up quickly when there is more than a couple of persons ahead.
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Old Nov 30, 16, 4:49 am
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Got this update today...

http://www.gemalto.com/press/Pages/P...r-control.aspx

Gemalto and its trusted partner Automatic Systems have been selected by Paris Aéroport to provide 87 e-gates, in Paris-Charles de Gaulle and Paris-Orly airports. By the spring of 2017, with only their passport and fingerprint, passengers will be able to start passing through new, faster e-gates from Gemalto and save time on departure and at arrival in Paris main airports. With 95.2 million passengers passing through them each year, ensuring the best possible security while simultaneously improving passenger fluidity is the goal.
The process is both fast, user-friendly and highly secure: at the e-gate, passengers present their electronic passport, then their finger. The fingerprint is matched against the biometric data stored in the document. While the identity of the traveler is verified at the e-gate, Border Protection Officers can keep monitoring the information in real-time in order to allow border crossing.
Enjoy!
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Old Nov 30, 16, 7:25 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Thanks. I always found it strange that MRS had Parafes but not NCE.
I agree. The typical answer you'll probably get in Nice is that the State has always preferred Marseille and Lyon to us (let alone Paris of course!) but I suspect it might have more to do with the organisation of the airport into two separate terminals organised by airline, which means that international flights are split evenly between them, whilst at MRS, I think that all non-Schengen flights (bar FR which has separate low cost facilities) land in Hall 1.

More seriously, however, I just think it is a silly waste of (human) resources not to install it across all airports with a large international (non-Schengen) traffic, of which NCE is of course the main example outside of Paris.

I have done more OSL than HEL of late - they are just very very fast and intuitive. I'd say maybe 15 seconds per passenger including both the passport reading and photo stages. I'll admit that I haven't timed them but a good anecdotal pointer is that I've seen lots of elderly people using them like breeze, whilst I have seen many elderly passengers at CDG who seem to have some difficulty with the Parafe gates.
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Old Nov 30, 16, 7:49 am
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Lewis42 View Post
That is very confusing. The original announcement was that face recognition would be used, so that all EU passports could use the e-gate.
Now we learn that the e-gate will be based on fingerprint meaning that it will be limited to French passports plus those who register. Hence, it will simply be the old PARAFE system but with e-gates that are supposed to work well as opposed to the old ones that kept breaking down.
Apparently there will be the option to include face recognition in the long term. But why do a large number of European airports (and non-European) use face recognition and not France?
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Old Nov 30, 16, 8:32 am
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The original announcement said exactly that fingerprint will work first, and the face recognition is in certification with French authorities:
"Still waiting for approval from French authorities. In case they don't approve the face recognition methodology, the machines will also be able to work with the current, i.e. register your fingerprint, method"
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Old Nov 30, 16, 9:38 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
I have seen many elderly passengers at CDG who seem to have some difficulty with the Parafe gates.
Fingerprint technology is always going to be more problematic with elderly passengers (tremors, difficulty in lifting the arm and keeping the hand in position, etc...). It was an issue for my mother.
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