bodory

http://www.pnc-contact.com/2015/07/1...attitude-79462

Part of AF crew took a flight to DPS for a surf session during their resting days in KUL. Volcano ashes prevented any flight to take off from DPS so the crew was not able to be back in KUL for the July 10th flight back to CDG. Flight has therefore been delayed by 24h.

Too bad the AF KUL route will be closed soon

Edit : AF website says that AF241 KUL-CDG has been cancelled replaced by AF8399 KUL-GGK and AF259 CGK-CDG.

MSPeconomist

With MH shrinking and other legacy airlines cutting flights, it's getting harder to get to KUL without using a LCC.

Goldorak

When you think about the cost of all this for AF, I hope that those missing crew members will be fired immediately when they return in CDG.

Often1

For doing what they are absolutely permitted to do?

A laughable suggestion which will not happen.

Zembla

Indeed. They had a day off and just like anyone who has a day off they can do with it whatever they want! It's certainly not their fault that the volcano erupted, so they can't be blamed for anything.

brunos

I am not sure that the situation is as simple as "they had a day off". These are rest days. Many airlines impose some rest restrictions on staff, especially pilots. AF has always been lax and following incidents/accidents where pilots had been partying before the flight, AF has tried to be stricter on rest periods before the flight.
Staff are supposed to be ready to take their duty. Considering as force majeure a trip where the travel component from Malaysian hotel to Bali beach and vice versa takes about 6 hours (3 hours flights) is far fetched. As every traveller knows, there can be many reasons for trouble. First, flights between KUL and DPS are not frequent,in this heavy holiday seasons irrops can create chaos; there can be accident on the Bali roads; storms do happen in that period; volcano ashes or fire smokes are not infrequent in Indonesia,... A very stupid decision on the part of AF staff.
But any attempt to impose sanctions will be met by immediate reaction by unions.

Goldorak

They certainly have the right to do whatever they want during their resting period. But they have the duty and obligation to be present on-time to ensure the flight, especially from an outstation where there is no reserve crew (at CDG, this kind of situation is easily handled with reserve crews). For this, they have to take necessary precautions to ensure that their activities during their layover will not impair their ability to report in due time at the airport. And some crew members failed to report on-time because they were surfing somewhere at 3 hrs flight time from KUL ! Those guys put themselves in a very risky situation from the beginning, even without this volcanic eruption, going very very far from the station they are supposed to be, in a region and period of the year with a lot of storms so flights can be cancelled easily.

You can disagree with me, no problem with that, but laughable ?? Next time your flight for an important meeting or for your vacations will be cancelled because some crew members are absent because they thought that they could have fun elsewhere, I'm not sure you'll consider this laughable :roll eyes:

And if you calculate roughly for 250 pax what will be the cost for AF of this surfing adventure of some of its crew members, you reach easily 100 KEuros (hotel night, rebooking on other airlines, financial and/or miles compensations, etc). The most expensive surfing adventure ! Have fun

brunos

The cost is probably much higher.
First, it is not clear whether the flight is only delayed by 24 hours. DPS has been closed, briefly reopened and closed again. Huge number of stranded pax. AF staff are probably on staff tickets which have no priority in case of irrops. AF will have to claim a few favors to get them back quickly.

Second, we are in very heavy holiday travel season where planes and crews are in full use. The missing plane and full crew will be sorely missed for the next rotations.

warakorn

Moreover, AF would have to pay each passenger a compensation fo EUR 600 due to EC261/2004.
While the volcanic ash chaos can be considered to be force majeure, it certainly should not affect KUL-CDG.

jjjohn

resting day =/= off duty day
AF is still paying allowance to the staff outstation.

nicolas75

Well I find the comments somewhat too harsh.
Of course the situation surely caused issues to most passengers who were delayed. Still, the volcanic irruption is clearly a force majeure.

I myself missed a business meeting as my Sunday evening's return AF flight from Genova was cancelled: can I be blamed to have to stay one more night at (beautiful) Portofino?

ajs123

Sure, the volcanic activity is a force majeure for airlines departing DPS and nearby affected airports, but not for AF departing KUL. Otherwise with your logic any delays/cancellation can be blamed on some volcanoes being active somewhere...

San Gottardo

I Don't know what the specific rules are at Air France, but I just asked the Chef de Cabine on my flight. He basically said this:

The days spent at destination *are* duty days. They are not the same as off duty days spent at home. During the so-called layover days crew are under the responsibility of the employer, especially for insurance purposes.

Basically during those layover days they are free what to do, as long as:
1. They do nothing that violates specific instructions given by the airline. For instance, in some locations crew are not allowed to leave the hotel because of security concerns.
2. They do nothing that would not be covered by the insurance
3. (This one is crucial) They do report back at the reporting time at the reporting place (usually the crew hotel), ready to fly, i.e. in mental and physical condition to fly, uniforms ready, etc

A crew member that does not report back at reporting time will be formally reprimanded, but not fired if this happens only once.

This is a different situation, so your analogy does not hold. Yours was a trip during your off time to Italy. It would be different if you were sent to Rome by your employer for three days, and on the first afternoon and evening you decided that you have some un-busy time and you go to Capri to enjoy yourself. If then you got stuck because the Capri ferries go on strike and you don't attend the business meetings that you were sent to Rome for on the second day then your employer would rightfully ask the question why you went to Capri. Surely, you are free to move when not working and probably no one would bother whether you went to Capri or to the moon if you did turn up to your meeting on the second morning. But there is something even in French labour law where time on a business trip isn't as free as your own private weekend.

(Of course I made up this example and I know it takes more time to go from Rome to Capri, but the point is the difference between off time and not-so-off time)

Precisely. Same with crews that get stuck on the way to the airport because of winter weather. If the crew bus with all ready-to-fly crew gets stuck in bad weather on the motorway from the downtown Chicago hotel on its way to O'Hare that is one thing and no action will be taken against crew. If an individual crew member does not report back in time because he went skiing in Utah during his layover and gets stuck in snow on his way back from Park City, then that is another, not acceptable case.

All in all, firing the crew members would only work if they were in clear and dramatic breach of their employment contract or other provisions. But even if the consequences for pax and the cost for the airline were "dramatic", I would not assume the airline would go that far. However, just shrugging shoulders and saying "force majeure" and apologizing away the crew's behaviour, I personally would find that insufficient and I believe so does the airline.

olivedel

While I am always amazed to see such anecdotic news on the press (cancelled flights happen every day in the world for numerous reasons including because of unavailable crew members), I 100% agree with San Gottardo.
I would seriously be surprised not to see a "proximity" rule in crew working contracts, stating that they cannot leave more than x hours away from their hotel, precisely to avoid such issues.
Therefore, it would be legitimate for the employer to take appropriate disciplinary mesures if they want to.

Goldorak

I fully agree with you too and the part of your post I have quoted is indeed the key point in this story.