Goldorak

Are you talking about CDG P lounge ? If yes, I have never seen such horrible thing
I have the feeling we have not flown the same airline. Never had this kind of issue in P (nor in J).

My confusion level is increasing...
CDG ground service is astonishing. And it's not bad at all in outstations (at least the ones I tried). The main room for improvement in outstations is the lounge experience.

I fully agree. I like this concept. I'm not a fan of the closed suites and much prefer the space impression of the open cabins. This seems to be a very good compromise.
The product looks nice. I welcome the Sofitel bed product. MyBed product is one of the best bed for me , although it can be too warm maybe.

On the current seat, there was a mattress added. So I'd be surprised they won't do this for the new seat.

Agreed

I'm sure they will retrofit the A380 fleet as well. It will be unsustainable to have this difference in hard product.

+1 ^

Overall, the new product looks great to me and thank you to our live reporter Olivedel ^ Have a great time in PVG

AshleyB

On the whole it looks rather nice. I do agree that the curtains could be troublesome. When I fly Emirates First it is very nice on really long flights (SYD-DXB eg) to sleep undisturbed by people walking by in the night, or other passengers' lights and so on. For me privacy, at that price, is paramount. I do see that there are some who love sleeping in public and don't mind about disturbances but, and I say it again, at a First Class fare one should not have that problem. IF they have really figured out how to make these curtains work then tant mieux. If not it will be an untidy mess. Ultimately they might have been better off with the CX seat which is open/private and very nice indeed.

The colours are restful and the details are pleasant if little more. They have obviously taken a very neutral position on this upgrade. It represents a substantial improvement without 'betting the company'. It is a small market for AF but one that for brand reasons they cannot let go.

Contrary to some on this forum I have almost always found the 'soft product' to be very good. In all honesty I prefer the professionalism and style of AF pncs to the service offered by, for example, EK. The real problem for AF now (as in the past) will be consistency. The NEV nightmare of 4 different (inadequate) products staggered across the fleet FOR YEARS looks like happening again, with the new P appearing only 773 aircraft and the 330/340/380 fleet receiving no upgrades at all in either J or P. It does, as one poster put it, 'reputational damage' to the company. This is a pity as AF has done a pretty good job with its brand in the last couple of years despite the appallingly dated cabins. In any event all of this is probably academic given AF's (poor) track record in introducing new cabins. It is likely we will still be flying in NEV 2 through 4 for another four or five years at least...

stimpy

It looks great to me and I would happily camp out in one of these suites on a long haul.

About the curtains, I wonder if they plan to changes those on each flight? Much as you get a fresh blanket on each flight, why not swap out the curtains in P? They could be designed to change in less than a minute. And then you won't have to smell the perfume of the person who spent the night there before you.

Zembla

On the ground? I think the whole treatment at CDG and especially the lounge is excellent. I don't see what should be improved there?

Actually I also enjoy privacy when I sleep. But I don't enjoy staring at 3 very nearby walls and a short strech of isle for 9 hours on a day flight. The curtain may work perfectly fine, or not. It has to be experienced I guess. It looks pretty clever though imho.

cardesigner2000

Slightly OT, but the following article in the New Yorker about aircraft seat design is a good read, with the startling fact (for myself at least) that first class seating units can cost half a million dollars each: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

orbitmic

Definitely agree that comparing to the residence is simply two different products. I don't understand the point about not comparing to the P "apartments" though. At the end of the day, we know that P is a relatively narrow world market and that the people who spend that sort of money have choice and want what is best. Whether AF, BA, LH, or any other airline like it or not, competition is there so I don't think it would make sense to only see if the AF new P is better than the AF old P because that would probably not have much of an impact on their market share if everyone else is progressing in similar ways. Moreover, AF seeks the comparison. Again, the AdJ announcements very explicitly defined the target as offering the best P in the world. That is a very explicit request for comparison. Of course if AF is "second best" after EY it will be a huge victory and nobody is suggesting that we need to take the "best in the world" claim literally. However, it needs to be up there, which will effectively mean comparing with the entire competitive scene including the SQ, CX, and EK of this world. Being, say "better than AA" would simply not be enough.

PS: Final point, of all competition, EY is probably one of the most logical to consider because of AF's own strategic choices: as they collaborate narrowly with EY, once the A380 is introduced on other routes than LHR, some people on AF tickets will effectively get to experience EY F as part of their own ticket!

PPS: Yep, 'reputational damage' is me I guess. I hope that olivedel and Goldorak are right in their hope that AF will at least ensure consistency in F by introducing the same design on the A380 as I also think it would be unsustainable not to, but as AshleyB mentions, even if they end up doing it, if they are only "thinking" about it right now, it raises some questions about the likely timing.

Zembla

Actually agree with all of the above.

olivedel

Dear FTers,

I am delighted to make a detailed report of the Press Conference that was held in Shanghai today, at 2pm, at the Waterhouse, Shanghai. Of course, as the Press Release has leaked on the forum last night, nothing would be that much of a surprise, but I took some pictures and uploaded them in an album. The test of the seat will come in a later post.


Sorry for the corporate tone sometimes, I just write what has been said and can be, of course, subject to comments by all of us ! ^

The session started with a small video presenting the improvements in comfort of the 80 years of history of Air France.


Patrick Alexandre, Executive Vice-President Commercial AFKL reminded how important the Chinese market is for the group. 88 flights per week between China and Paris/Amsterdam, 128 flights with code shares with China Eastern and Southern, with plans to create a JV.


Frédéric Gagey reminded the Customer Focused strategy of Air France, part of Transform 2015 strategic roadmap
They stated that it will now focus on improving the revenue instead of cutting costs.
The improvement of the cabin is part of the Best and Beyond program, today being the achievement of it.
They promised in 2012 the best level of the product, and today they are confident in meeting this objective, the suite presented today being, from what they said, the best quality and design. This project is the one that requested the most attention and money of the past years: 50 M€.


Bruno Matheu presented the actual seat, introducing by saying that the inflight experience needed to be on par with the La Première experience at CDG. The bey elements being:

• Not bling, but elegant
• Designed By the customer, for the customer
• Only 4 suites by plane. 2m30 length, 5m3 of space
• Compromise between open and closed space
• Curtains inspired by the Super Constellation
• 58 cm between the armrests, 6 cm more than today
• 2m bed, 77 cm large, 16 cm more than today
• A futon on the seat to make the bed, and a Sofitel MyBed comforter
• Technology: a 24" HD flat screen with an intuitive interface (personal note: like in all classes, BTW)
• Remote control like a smartphone. Bose QuietConfort headset
• Walls and headrest in fine leather.

Answers to the questions asked by fellow FTers that I was able to bring on the table (I talked with Execs in front of the audience for 10 minutes, not sure everyone else was interested though ):

• Date and routes of introduction of the new P: NYC and SIN, sometimes in September 2014
• About the other 777 that are not part of the 44 (BEST program): they will be taken care do afterwards because they already have at least NEV3. COI might also be in scope but afterwards, like 330s. The 380 will be part of a specific program but will be taken care of too, with no calendar yet either. No mention of 747s and 340s, but I suppose they will never be in scope.
• Is the new P better than new EY's P? AF is very proud of its new product and has no shame versus competitors. They claim their seat is larger in both lounging and bedding positions.
• About Quick Change: It is still in the process of being defined. They said they faced some issues (we can imagine it is about the W cabin...) but claim it is key in the global balance of the BEST program
• About the service: no major improvement announced, besides the caviar offering being systematic

There is a full exhibition sponsored by Air France and where the seat will be available for testing. I will be pleased to post additional pictures of it.

brunos

Are the new J seats installed at the same time as the new F seats?
If so, does the info suggests that the launch date of the J seat is postponed from June to September? Or maybe the first aircraft with J does not have F.

My general reaction to the new F seat is that it is consistent with what most good airlines have installed on their 77W, namely 1x2x1 facing forward. But with less privacy and a curtain. A big minus for me is the single row (4 seats), meaning that the F cabin will feel boxed in. The screen looks small for the remote distance.

stimpy

Have you flown on the current 777 P? I have and didn't feel boxed in. Sitting in 1A it all seems wide open to me. Of course I don't look backwards on an airplane unless I'm on BA in CW.

olivedel

The aircraft starting the JFK route in June does not have P.

brunos

Yes, I have flown extensively in AF F on 77W (2 rows) and 772 (1 row).
That was a while ago but on the current seats.
On the 77W, I always avoided row 1 because of the galley noise (and view of FAs despite the semi-open curtain). On the 772, there is only row 1. Furthermore, this mini-cabin of a single row feels claustrophobic.

Goldorak

I confirm

nicolas75

Givenchy dated?!?

It is currently one of the most creative luxury houses.

http://www.vogue.com/voguepedia/Givenchy

orbitmic

Yes I personally found recent collections a bit dated compared to some of the other major French Maisons.